Discussion:
Ukraine is ready to join the Western world
(too old to reply)
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-24 09:10:45 UTC
Permalink
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
imperialists have done as their weekly provocation for this week:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-bases-after-russian-threats-782029.html

Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!

Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.

Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!

If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!

Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!

Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!

Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.

Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population. In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.

Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.

Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.

There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?

Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever. These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!

Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!

New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!

The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies of all films in Russian and watch
them at home. Thank god, watching foreign language films at home is
not forbidden yet. Intellectual piracy and the black market are
booming!

In other words, unlike that damn Serbia, Ukraine is increasingly
becoming more libertarian, more free-economy, more respect-for-
minorites. It's ready for the WTO, EU and NATO now.

And with all that increasingly reasonable and sane behaviour on the
part of the Ukrainian government after it got rid of non-libertarian
Yanukovich - the Russian-speaking half of Ukriane is still not
perfectly happy! Why?! Clearly, the Kremlin is artificially provoking
them. It's all Putin's fault! That's it! I bet he was the one who
wrote and voted for this new insane cinema law in Ukraine!
Andrzej Adam Filip
2008-02-24 12:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]
Are you *capable* to imagine USA reaction caused by installation of
a democratically elected "very Castro friendly" government in Mexico?

Are you shameless enough to suggest that Bush the 2nd would not react? :-)

Demagogic *overkill* makes what you said *FUNNY* :-)

P.S.
The strongest hatred grows often on failed love.
--
Andrzej Adam Filip
Лучше мужественно умереть, чем жить в позоре.
-- Сократ
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-24 12:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrzej Adam Filip
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]
Are you *capable* to imagine USA reaction caused by installation of
a democratically elected "very Castro friendly" government in Mexico?
Are you shameless enough to suggest that Bush the 2nd would not react? :-)
That reminds me of the current hooplah over the American AMD systems
to be installed in Poland and Czech R:

http://www.pr-inside.com/polish-foreign-minister-says-russia-threats-r416272.htm
WASHINGTON (AP) - Poland's foreign minister Radek Sikorski is pressing
for security aid from the United States as part of any deal....
Earlier at a speech at the American Enterprise Institute, a
conservative think tank where he once worked, Sikorski compared
Poland's situation to that of a homeowner who is asked by a friendly
neighbor to allow a satellite dish to be installed on his roof, then
is confronted by another neighbor who insists that the dish will harm
his health and threatens violence. <<You and I know, a dish does not
make you sick,>> he said, continuing the metaphor. <<The question is,
what can we do together to address an unreasonable neighbor".

Are *you* capable to imagine USA reaction caused by installation of
similar Russian "satellite dishes" in Cuba and Mexico? Are you
shameless enough to suggest that Bush the 2nd would not react? :-)

I bet plainclothed scientists both US and Poland shall suddenly
discover a lot about the health dangers of not only satellite dishes
but of cable and even over-the-air TV.... And of the benefits of
having big deserts in place of Mexico and Cuba. :-)
Post by Andrzej Adam Filip
Demagogic *overkill* makes what you said *FUNNY* :-)
This is not an overkill. Foreign-language cinema sound has indeed been
banned in Ukraine. No joking. Everything has to be dubbed into
Ukrainian.
Post by Andrzej Adam Filip
P.S.
The strongest hatred grows often on failed love.
True.
Post by Andrzej Adam Filip
--
Andrzej Adam Filip
Лучше мужественно умереть, чем жить в позоре.
-- Сократ
Sadist, gostem budesh'
/Narodnaya priskazka/

Luchshe perespat', chem nedoest'
/Narodnaya mudrost'/
Henry Alminas
2008-02-24 14:54:54 UTC
Permalink
<<lots of dribbles wiped up>>
Post by Andrzej Adam Filip
P.S.
The strongest hatred grows often on failed love.
True.

*****************

The problem here is that what the russkies call
"love" the normal world calls rape!

Best - - Henry
The Black Monk
2008-02-24 17:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-b...
Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!
Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.
Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!
If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!
Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!
Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!
Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.
Sure, but the major difference here is that most people who speak
Russian amongst themselves in Ukraine, also understand Ukrainian fine,
so I very much doubt that they are losing the ability to understand
movies.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo. Prior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.

Crimea's historical population:

http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?
Ironically, most of the wealth in Eastern Ukraine is distributed to
the oligarchs, so that the typical east Ukrainian resident is just as
dirt poor as his western Ukrainian counterpart. But unlike the
western Ukrainians, the Eastern Sovoks have more AIDS, abortions,
heroin, prostitution, and a collapsing population.

As compensation for these sad facts, many more members of the eastern
Ukrainian elite vs. Western have second homes in Cyprus and expensive
German cars. The money goes to them far more than it goes to western
Ukraine. How many billions does the former gangter-turned-eastern
Ukrainian oligarch have? He is now the wealthiest man in Ukraine and
among the wealthiest in Europe. Noone in Lviv, certainly, comes
close.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever.
Paradjanov's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!
Hopefully they do not ban symphonies in movie theaters next.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!
Indeed.

regards,

BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!
Has anyone been prosecuted yet for this?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies of all films in Russian and watch
them at home. Thank god, watching foreign language films at home is
not forbidden yet. Intellectual piracy and the black market are
booming!
In other words, unlike that damn Serbia, Ukraine is increasingly
becoming more libertarian, more free-economy, more respect-for-
minorites.  It's ready for the WTO, EU and NATO now.
And with all that increasingly reasonable and sane behaviour on the
part of the Ukrainian government after it got rid of non-libertarian
Yanukovich - the Russian-speaking half of Ukriane is still not
perfectly happy!  Why?! Clearly, the Kremlin is artificially provoking
them. It's all Putin's fault! That's it! I bet he was the one who
wrote and voted for this new insane cinema law in Ukraine!
MHN Parée
2008-02-24 18:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-b...
Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!
Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.
Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!
If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!
Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!
Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!
Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.
Sure, but the major difference here is that most people who speak
Russian amongst themselves in Ukraine, also understand Ukrainian fine,
so I very much doubt that they are losing the ability to understand
movies.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo. Prior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?
Ironically, most of the wealth in Eastern Ukraine is distributed to
the oligarchs, so that the typical east Ukrainian resident is just as
dirt poor as his western Ukrainian counterpart. But unlike the
western Ukrainians, the Eastern Sovoks have more AIDS, abortions,
heroin, prostitution, and a collapsing population.
As compensation for these sad facts, many more members of the eastern
Ukrainian elite vs. Western have second homes in Cyprus and expensive
German cars. The money goes to them far more than it goes to western
Ukraine. How many billions does the former gangter-turned-eastern
Ukrainian oligarch have? He is now the wealthiest man in Ukraine and
among the wealthiest in Europe. Noone in Lviv, certainly, comes
close.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever.
Paradjanov's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!
Hopefully they do not ban symphonies in movie theaters next.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!
Indeed.
regards,
BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!
Has anyone been prosecuted yet for this?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies
...
read more »
More than 75% of all journals are in Russian and most films dubbed in
Russkie too!
Laws are passed, who cares a shit!
Maxopka
2008-02-25 00:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-b...
Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!
Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.
Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!
If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!
Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!
Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!
Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.
Sure, but the major difference here is that most people who speak
Russian amongst themselves in Ukraine, also understand Ukrainian fine,
so I very much doubt that they are losing the ability to understand
movies.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo.  Prior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?
Ironically, most of the wealth in Eastern Ukraine is distributed to
the oligarchs, so that the typical east Ukrainian resident is just as
dirt poor as his western Ukrainian counterpart.  But unlike the
western Ukrainians, the Eastern Sovoks have more AIDS, abortions,
heroin, prostitution, and a collapsing population.
As compensation for these sad facts, many more members of the eastern
Ukrainian elite vs. Western have second homes in Cyprus and expensive
German cars.  The money goes to them far more than it goes to western
Ukraine.  How many billions does the former gangter-turned-eastern
Ukrainian oligarch have?  He is now the wealthiest man in Ukraine and
among the wealthiest in Europe.  Noone in Lviv, certainly, comes
close.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever.
Paradjanov's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!
Hopefully they do not ban symphonies in movie theaters next.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!
Indeed.
regards,
BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!
Has anyone been prosecuted yet for this?> The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
Post by o***@hotmail.com
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies of all films in Russian and watch
them at home. Thank god, watching foreign language films at home is
not forbidden yet. Intellectual piracy and the black market are
booming!
In other words, unlike that damn Serbia, Ukraine is increasingly
becoming more libertarian, more free-economy, more respect-for-
minorites.  It's ready for the WTO, EU and NATO now.
And with all that increasingly reasonable and sane behaviour on the
part of the Ukrainian government after it got rid of non-libertarian
Yanukovich - the Russian-speaking half of Ukriane is still not
perfectly happy!  Why?! Clearly, the Kremlin is artificially provoking
them. It's all Putin's fault! That's it! I bet he was the one who
wrote and voted for this new insane cinema law in Ukraine!
During the "glorious" days of Soviet Union, a KGB Agent decided
to take english language lessons by correspondence. ( in order
to understand english speaking movies) At the end of his studies
he was to pass an oral exam, the teacher asked him the following;

"Comrade !, before receiving your certificate, you must say at least
four words in english"
Without hesitation the KGB studend answered;
"Metro. Goldwyn, Mayer, Ghhhhrrrrrrrrrrr

Maxopka
(Director of Russian-speaking Ukrainian Nationalists)
v***@yahoo.com
2008-02-25 05:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxopka
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-b...
Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!
Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.
Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!
If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!
Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!
Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!
Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.
Sure, but the major difference here is that most people who speak
Russian amongst themselves in Ukraine, also understand Ukrainian fine,
so I very much doubt that they are losing the ability to understand
movies.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo.  Prior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?
Ironically, most of the wealth in Eastern Ukraine is distributed to
the oligarchs, so that the typical east Ukrainian resident is just as
dirt poor as his western Ukrainian counterpart.  But unlike the
western Ukrainians, the Eastern Sovoks have more AIDS, abortions,
heroin, prostitution, and a collapsing population.
As compensation for these sad facts, many more members of the eastern
Ukrainian elite vs. Western have second homes in Cyprus and expensive
German cars.  The money goes to them far more than it goes to western
Ukraine.  How many billions does the former gangter-turned-eastern
Ukrainian oligarch have?  He is now the wealthiest man in Ukraine and
among the wealthiest in Europe.  Noone in Lviv, certainly, comes
close.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever.
Paradjanov's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!
Hopefully they do not ban symphonies in movie theaters next.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!
Indeed.
regards,
BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!
Has anyone been prosecuted yet for this?> The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
Post by o***@hotmail.com
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies of all films in Russian and watch
them at home. Thank god, watching foreign language films at home is
not forbidden yet. Intellectual piracy and the black market are
booming!
In other words, unlike that damn Serbia, Ukraine is increasingly
becoming more libertarian, more free-economy, more respect-for-
minorites.  It's ready for the WTO, EU and NATO now.
And with all that increasingly reasonable and sane behaviour on the
part of the Ukrainian government after it got rid of non-libertarian
Yanukovich - the Russian-speaking half of Ukriane is still not
perfectly happy!  Why?! Clearly, the Kremlin is artificially provoking
them. It's all Putin's fault! That's it! I bet he was the one who
wrote and voted for this new insane cinema law in Ukraine!
During the "glorious" days of Soviet Union, a KGB Agent decided
to take english language lessons by correspondence. ( in order
to understand english speaking movies) At the end of his studies
he was to pass an oral exam,  the teacher asked him the following;
"Comrade !, before receiving your certificate, you must say at least
four words in english"
Without hesitation the KGB studend answered;
"Metro. Goldwyn, Mayer, Ghhhhrrrrrrrrrrr
Maxopka
(Director of Russian-speaking Ukrainian Nationalists)
A world fanous intellectual movie director Benny Hill is interviewed
on Biritish TV:
- How many foreign languages do you know?
- Sixteen!
- Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
- Me oui, monsegneur, oui!
- But that's not German! It's French!
- Really? Then seventeen!
- I want to ask about the most famous scene from you classic film
"Britanic". The entire film is in vivid colour. Then there is a a
spectacular explosion on the ship, and the remaining 13 minutes of the
movie are in mournful and dreamy black-and-white. How did you come up
with this brilliant, much imitated idea?
- We ran over budget and couldn't afford to buy colour film for the
last 13 minutes.

A man comes to the Aeroflot counter:
- I want 2 tickets TO DUBLIN !
- KUDA, BLIN ?
v***@yahoo.com
2008-02-25 07:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-b...
Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!
Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.
Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!
If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!
Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!
Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!
Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.
Sure, but the major difference here is that most people who speak
Russian amongst themselves in Ukraine, also understand Ukrainian fine,
so I very much doubt that they are losing the ability to understand
movies.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo.  Prior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
You are talking about people's ethnic origin and ancerstry. I am not.
I am not trying to prove whether Krymea should belong to Russia or
Ukraine or Turkey. The fact is that ever since Katherine and the
Russian Imperial Army took Krymea from Turks some 250 years ago, the
only language that people spoke to each other there was Russian. There
were also Tatars there, of course, who spoke Tatar to each other but
Russian to other Krymeans. There were also some recent migrants form
Bulgaria, Ukraine, Jewish shtetls, Armenia, who in the first
generation spoke their native tongue among themselves and Russian in
public, but in the third generation they knew only Russia. A melting
pot like America.

The point here is that Krymea people kno Ukrainian language no more
than do people in Moscow or Bashkiria or Tatarstan.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that the people, who were treated
as "compensation" (like "collateral damage" in NATO double-speak?)
don't know Ukrainian.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Well, until 1920 Odessa was not Ukrainain. It was Russsian (by
language and administrative status). And since the founder of Odessa
Catherine II is not the main topic here, let me just point out that if
not for Katherine, Ukriane would be twice as small as it is today, and
Krymea, Odessa and the rest of Southern Ukraine would be part of
Turkey. It was Yulka Tymoshenko's party that erected the statue to
Catherine in Odessa, Keep also in mind that Roman Shukhevich, who is
regarded as a major Nazi war criminal and genocidist in much of
Ukraine outside of Halycia and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of
Odessa, has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?

Read what Wiki says about Odessa and let the readers decide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa

During the Russo-Turkish War of 1787–1792, on 25 September 1789, a
detachment of Russian forces under Ivan Gudovich [Russian of Uke
ethnicity] took Khadjibey and Yeni Dünya for the Russian Empire. One
part of the troops was under command of a Spaniard in Russian service,
Major General José de Ribas (known in Russia as Osip Mikhailovich
Deribas) and the main street in Odessa today, Deribasovskaya Street,
is named after him. Russia formally gained possession of the area as a
result of the Treaty of Jassy (Iaşi) in 1792 and it became a part of
the so-called Novorossiya ("New Russia").

The city was officially founded in 1794 as a Russian naval fortress on
the ruins of Khadjibey and renamed Odessa by January 1795, when its
new name was first mentioned in official correspondence. According to
one of the stories, when someone suggested Odessos as a name for the
new Russian port, Catherine II said that all names in the South of the
Empire were already 'masculine,' and didn't want yet another one, so
she decided to change it to more 'feminine' Odessa.

The new city quickly became a major success. Its early growth owed
much to the work of the Duc de Richelieu, who served as the city's
governor between 1803–1814. Having fled the French Revolution, he had
served in Catherine's army against the Turks. He is credited with
designing the city and organizing its amenities and infrastructure,
and is considered one of the founding fathers of Odessa, together with
another Frenchman, Count Louis Alexandre Andrault de Langeron, who
succeeded him in office. Richelieu is commemorated by a bronze statue,
unveiled in 1828 to a design by Ivan Martos.

In 1819 the city was made a free port, a status it retained until
1859. It became home to an extremely diverse population of Russians,
Ukrainians, Jews, Romanians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Armenians,
Italians, Frenchmen, Germans and traders representing many other
nationalities (hence numerous 'ethnic' names on the city's map, e.g.,
Frantsuszkiy (French) and Italianskiy (Italian) Boulevards,
Grecheskaya (Greek), Evreyskaya (Jewish), Arnautskaya (Albanian)
Streets). Its cosmopolitan nature was documented by the great Russian
poet Alexander Pushkin, who lived in internal exile in Odessa between
1823–1824. In his letters he wrote that Odessa was a city where "you
can smell Europe. French is spoken and there are European papers and
magazines to read". Odessa's growth was interrupted by the Crimean War
of 1853–1856, during which it was bombarded by British and French
naval forces. It soon recovered and the growth in trade made Odessa
Russia's largest grain-exporting port.

The city became the home of a large Jewish community during the 19th
century, and by 1897 Jews were estimated to comprise some 37% of the
population. They were, however, repeatedly subjected to severe
persecution. Many Odessan Jews fled abroad, particularly to Palestine
after 1882, and the city became an important base of support for
Zionism.

The largest ehtnic group in Odessa in 1900 were Russians: 49%. Jews
were 32%.

At the top of the steps, which lead down to the port, stands a statue
of the Duc de Richelieu. The "Odessa Steps" continue to be a tourist
attraction in Odessa. The film was made at Odessa's Cinema Factory,
one of the oldest cinema studios in the former Soviet Union.

Following the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 during World War I, Odessa
was occupied by several groups, including the Ukrainian Tsentral'na
Rada, the French Army, the Red Army and the White Army. Finally, in
1920, the Red Army took control of Odessa and united it with the
Ukrainian SSR, which later became part of the USSR.

The people of Odessa suffered from a famine that occurred in 1921–1922
as a result of the Civil war. During World War II Odessa was occupied
by Romanian and German forces from 1941–1944. The city suffered severe
damage and many casualties.

Following the Siege of Odessa, and the Axis occupation, approximately
60,000 Odessans (mostly Jews) were either massacred or deported.

Famous people from Odessa
Further information: People born in Odessa at Category:People from
Odessa

The Philharmonic Society
Odessa Archaeological Museum, like so many other landmarks in the
city, was designed in Neoclassicalstyle.

Poet Anna Akhmatova was born in Bolshoy Fontan near Odessa. The city
has produced many writers, including Isaac Babel, Ilf and Petrov [my
parents!], and Yuri Olesha. Ze'ev Jabotinsky, a Zionist leader and
author, was born in Odessa. The chess player Efim Geller was born in
the city. (All listed, except for Olesha and Petrov, are
representatives of the city's Jewish community.[wrong. Akhmatova was
not Jewish]) Gymnast Tatiana Gutsu known as "The Painted Bird of
Odessa" brought home Ukraine's first Gold Medal in the women's All-
Around event at 1992 Summer Olympics held in Barcelona Spain. [How
about writers Katayev, Pustovsky, Inber, skaters Petrenko and Baiul
and their coach Zmeyevskaya?]

Scientists
A list of world known scientists lived and worked in Odessa. Among
them: Ilya Mechnikov (Nobel Prize in Medicine 1908), Igor Tamm (Nobel
Prize in Physics 1958), Dmitri Mendeleev, Nikolay Pirogov, Ivan
Sechenov, George Gamow, Leonid Mandelstam, Aleksandr Lyapunov, Mark
Krein, Alexander Smakula. [Filatov, Fedorov, Waxman (Nobel Prize),
Fikhtengoltz, Ushinsky, Bogomolets, Liapunov,

Artists
The most popular Russian show-business people from Odessa are Mikhail
Zhvanetsky (legendary humorist writer, who began his career as port
engineer) and Roman Kartsev (comedian). Zhvanetsky's and Kartsev's
success in 1970s, together with Odessa's KVN team, much contributed to
Odessa's established status of a "capital of Soviet humour",
culminating in the annual Humorina festival, carried out on and around
the April Fool's Day. Odessa is the home of Greek philologist, author
and promoter of Demotic Greek Ioannis Psycharis (1854-1929). [Pushkin,
Gogol, Bunin (Nobel Prize), Sholom-Alechem, Mayakovsky, Kandinsky,
Zhukovsky, Vyazemsky, Bagritsky, Alexander Green, Chukovsky, Kuprin

Musicians
Odessa has also produced several famous musicians, including the
violinists Nathan Milstein, David Oistrakh and Igor Oistrakh, and
pianists Benno Moiseiwitsch, Vladimir de Pachmann, Shura Cherkassky,
Emil Gilels, Maria Grinberg, Simon Barere, and Yakov Zak.
[Selevinksy].
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
But the signs on many mountain rouads are in Ukrainian only. Imagine
a Russian-speaker is driving and sees:

Увага! Ожеледица! Зроби запинку! Перевiрь гайма!

Uvaga! Ozheleditsa! Zrobi zapinku! Perevir' gajma!

In Russian it is:

Внимание! Гололед! Замедлись. Проверь тормоза!

Vnimanie! Gololed! Zamedlis'. Prover' tormoza!

Means:

Attention! Solid Ice! Slow down! Check breaks!
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?
Ironically, most of the wealth in Eastern Ukraine is distributed to
the oligarchs, so that the typical east Ukrainian resident is just as
dirt poor as his western Ukrainian counterpart.  But unlike the
western Ukrainians, the Eastern Sovoks have more AIDS, abortions,
heroin, prostitution, and a collapsing population.
As compensation for these sad facts, many more members of the eastern
Ukrainian elite vs. Western have second homes in Cyprus and expensive
German cars.  The money goes to them far more than it goes to western
Ukraine.  How many billions does the former gangter-turned-eastern
Ukrainian oligarch have?  He is now the wealthiest man in Ukraine and
among the wealthiest in Europe.  Noone in Lviv, certainly, comes
close.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever.
Paradjanov's Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors?
I guess, although Paradjanov is not my cup of tea nor my bunch of
pommegranates.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!
Hopefully they do not ban symphonies in movie theaters next.
You are safe there. You may watch any silent film with a piano
accompaniement.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!
Indeed.
regards,
BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!
Has anyone been prosecuted yet for this?
Not yet. It will take years and $hundreds of millions of dolars to dub
all watchable movies.

Plus, I suspect the punishment is heavy fines, closing of businesses,
but not imprisonment.

Ukraine still has a long way to go to emulate USA, where you can be
thrown into the slammer for 10 years and fined $500 000 for visiting
Raul Castro's Cuba.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies of all films in Russian and watch
them at home. Thank god, watching foreign language films at home is
not forbidden yet. Intellectual piracy and the black market are
booming!
In other words, unlike that damn Serbia, Ukraine is increasingly
becoming more libertarian, more free-economy, more respect-for-
minorites.  It's ready for the WTO, EU and NATO now.
And with all that increasingly reasonable and sane behaviour on the
part of the Ukrainian government after it got rid of non-libertarian
Yanukovich - the Russian-speaking half of Ukriane is still not
perfectly happy!  Why?! Clearly, the Kremlin is artificially provoking
them. It's all Putin's fault! That's it! I bet he was the one who
wrote and voted for this new insane cinema law in Ukraine!
The Black Monk
2008-02-26 04:42:59 UTC
Permalink
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo.  Prior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
You are talking about people's ethnic origin and ancerstry. I am not.
I am not trying to prove whether Krymea should belong to Russia or
Ukraine or Turkey. The fact is that ever since Katherine and the
Russian Imperial Army took Krymea from Turks some 250 years ago,
Actually the Zaporozhian Cossacks participated in that conquest also,
immediately afterward they were stabbed in the back by Catherine II
and disbanded.

I accept that Crimea is Ukraine's Sudatenland, though, and support its
autonomous status.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
the
only language that people spoke to each other there was Russian. There
were also Tatars there, of course, who spoke Tatar to each other but
Russian to other Krymeans.
Sure. In 1863, Crimea's 150,000 Tatars probably spoke Russian to its
30,000 Russians, 18,000 Bulgarians and 8,000 Ukrainians. I'm sure
that during the Raj most Indians had to speak English to the English
living amongst them, as did/do Zulus, South African blacks, and
Afrikaners to the English. What does it prove?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
 There were also some recent migrants form
Bulgaria, Ukraine, Jewish shtetls, Armenia, who in the first
generation spoke their native tongue among themselves and Russian in
public, but in the third generation they knew only Russia. A melting
pot like America.
The point here is that Krymea people kno Ukrainian language no more
than do people in Moscow or Bashkiria or Tatarstan.
I suspect they're exposed to it more and thus have better knowledge of
it than Muscovites or Bashkirs. The languages are easy to learn if
one has exposure.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that the people, who were treated
as "compensation" (like "collateral damage" in NATO double-speak?)
don't know Ukrainian.
Well, a substantial minority of 23% of them don't regard Russian as
their native language:

Loading Image...

As for not knowing Ukrainian, how do you know that the Russophones
don't know it? While Russian and Ukrainian are not mutually
comprehensible to someone with no exposure, they can be learned quite
quickly by each other's speakers.

...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Well, until 1920 Odessa was not Ukrainain. It was Russsian (by
language and administrative status).
So was every city not in Galicia. And?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
And since the founder of Odessa
Catherine II is not the main topic here, let me just point out that if
not for Katherine, Ukriane would be twice as small as it is today, and
Krymea, Odessa and the rest of Southern Ukraine would be part of
Turkey.
Naturally the centuries-long struggles of the Ukrainian cossacks
didn't account for this happening?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
It was Yulka Tymoshenko's party that erected the statue to
Catherine in Odessa,  Keep also in mind that Roman Shukhevich, who is
regarded as a major  Nazi war criminal and genocidist in much of
Ukraine outside of Halycia
And 60% of Americans think Saddam was responsible for 9-11. Why give
in to ignorance?

Moreover, wikipedia has a nice article about Shukhevich and the
alleged massacre of Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
Post by v***@yahoo.com
and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of Odessa,
Any polls conducted about this attitude?

Moreover, most Jews have left Odessa - there are now 36,000 out of a
population of 1 million.

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl451.htm

Odesa is now mostly populated by the same Sovok white trash as live in
Donetsk - it's now become a cultural and intellectual wasteland like
the rest of Blue Ukraine.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?
As you noted Shukhevich was declared a Hero of Ukraine Ukraine by
Ukraine's head of state. So it's no longer about "Lviv people."

Frankly, the two cannot be compared. Shukhevich, whatever his
politics, was unambiguously pro-Ukrainian, Catherine was anti-
Ukrainian. Whose statue should be less controversial in Ukraine?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Read what Wiki says about Odessa and let the readers decide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
But the signs on many mountain rouads are in Ukrainian only.  Imagine
Увага!  Ожеледица!  Зроби запинку! Перевiрь гайма!
Uvaga! Ozheleditsa! Zrobi zapinku! Perevir' gajma!
Внимание! Гололед! Замедлись. Проверь тормоза!
Vnimanie! Gololed! Zamedlis'. Prover' tormoza!
Attention! Solid Ice! Slow down! Check breaks!
So Crimeans are so stupid that they don't know which of their own
local roads get icy?

BM
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-26 06:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.
Crimea attained a majority Russian population even more recently than
Kosovo attained a majority Albanian population - about 70 years for
Crimea vs. 100 years for Kosovo. šPrior to that it was an exotic place
for the wealthy to vacation in summer, with only a few thousand
Russian residents living among many more tatars and Ukrainian peasants
in the north.
http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html
You are talking about people's ethnic origin and ancerstry. I am not.
I am not trying to prove whether Krymea should belong to Russia or
Ukraine or Turkey. The fact is that ever since Katherine and the
Russian Imperial Army took Krymea from Turks some 250 years ago,
Actually the Zaporozhian Cossacks participated in that conquest also,
immediately afterward they were stabbed in the back by Catherine II
and disbanded.
I accept that Crimea is Ukraine's Sudatenland, though, and support its
autonomous status.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
 the
only language that people spoke to each other there was Russian. There
were also Tatars there, of course, who spoke Tatar to each other but
Russian to other Krymeans.
Sure.  In 1863, Crimea's 150,000 Tatars probably spoke Russian to its
30,000 Russians, 18,000 Bulgarians and 8,000 Ukrainians.  I'm sure
that during the Raj most Indians had to speak English to the English
living amongst them, as did/do Zulus, South African blacks, and
Afrikaners to the English.  What does it prove?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
šThere were also some recent migrants form
Bulgaria, Ukraine, Jewish shtetls, Armenia, who in the first
generation spoke their native tongue among themselves and Russian in
public, but in the third generation they knew only Russia. A melting
pot like America.
The point here is that Krymea people kno Ukrainian language no more
than do people in Moscow or Bashkiria or Tatarstan.
I suspect they're exposed to it more and thus have better knowledge of
it than Muscovites or Bashkirs.  The languages are easy to learn if
one has exposure.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
You may consider it compensation for Ukraine's suffering at the hands
of Moscow.
Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that the people, who were treated
as "compensation" (like "collateral damage" in NATO double-speak?)
don't know Ukrainian.
Well, a substantial minority of 23% of them don't regard Russian as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ruslangsup.PNG
As for not knowing Ukrainian, how do you know that the Russophones
don't know it?  While Russian and Ukrainian are not mutually
comprehensible to someone with no exposure, they can be learned quite
quickly by each other's speakers.
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
The only statue to be banned is the one of Catherine, who destroyed
the autonomy of the Hetmanate and who spread serfdom into Ukraine.
It's rather nasty, don't you think, for the Russian colonists and
their descendents in Odessa to build a statue in Ukraine dedicated to
the woman who destroyed Ukrainian autonomy and enserfed 100,000s
(millions?) or Ukrainians.
Well, until 1920 Odessa was not Ukrainain. It was Russsian (by
language and administrative status).
So was every city not in Galicia.  And?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
And since the founder of Odessa
Catherine II is not the main topic here, let me just point out that if
not for Katherine, Ukriane would be twice as small as it is today, and
Krymea, Odessa and the rest of Southern Ukraine would be part of
Turkey.
Naturally the centuries-long struggles of the Ukrainian cossacks
didn't account for this happening?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
It was Yulka Tymoshenko's party that erected the statue to
Catherine in Odessa, Keep also in mind that Roman Shukhevich, who is
regarded as a major Nazi war criminal and genocidist in much of
Ukraine outside of Halycia
And 60% of Americans think Saddam was responsible for 9-11.  Why give
in to ignorance?
Moreover, wikipedia has a nice article about Shukhevich and the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
LOL. A lot of the text there comes from me.

Several weeks ago, I tried to bring objectivity and "only naked facts"
to the Wiki texts about the Lviv Civilian Massacre and Shukhevich.
However, a certain person named "Bandurist" just kept on deleating all
references from the Jewish and Polish sources and inserting many
paragraphs of his own personal opinions. I gave up.

(Yes, Bandurist, not Benderist. Evidently he plays the sexy bandura
music for Australian audiences as a profession)

Why don't you and I go to those pages and alternate in writing
onjective bi-partisan text there until we reach an agreement, and then
defend it from all propagandists?

Please!
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of Odessa,
Any polls conducted about this attitude?
No. But I have a hilarious true story to tell you on this subject.
Here is the reference in Russian:

http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/166/VZR/o05.htm

Here is the English version of this story:

The legendary Jewish mayor of Odessa Gurwitz re-named one of the
streets in Odessa, previously named after the great poet and diplomat
Griboyedov, into "Shukhevich Street". For years, Uke nationalsits
were using this as proof that even Jews and Odessa people love
Shukhevych. I did some digging and discovered Gurwitz' own explanation
why he has done this:

"Before the 1917 Revolution, there was a street called Jewish Street.
When we came to power and returned Odessa streets their pre-Revolution
names, it turned out that the City Prosecutor's Office, The Oblast
police headquarters, and the Odessa Region Ukrainian KGB were all
located on this street. And the Uke KGB didn't like their new address:
"Jewish Street". So, they changed their mailing address to
'Griboyedov Street", the cross-street there. When I found out, I
renamed Griboyedov Street into "Shukhevich Street". So, the KGB was
now on the street named after a man, who had killed myriads of
KGBists. KGB immediately changed their mailing address to "Jewish
Street". See, there are people in the World who are even worse than
Jews!"

Эта улица была Еврейской до революции. И оказалось, что на этой улице
находятся, во-первых, городская прокуратура, во-вторых, областное
управление милиции и, в-третьих, областное управление КГБ. Руководству
КГБ это переименование не понравилось, и они на бланках написали:
«переулок Грибоедова», где у них был вход в отдел писем... Когда мне
это доложили, я переименовал переулок Грибоедова в Шухевича! И когда
управление КГБ оказалось на улице имени человека, который убил кучу
кагэбистов, они сразу поняли, что на Еврейской лучше. Видите, бывает
что-то хуже евреев…"[7]
Post by The Black Monk
Moreover, most Jews have left Odessa - there are now 36,000 out of a
population of 1 million.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl451.htm
Odesa is now mostly populated by the same Sovok white trash as live in
Donetsk -  it's now become a cultural and intellectual wasteland like
the rest of Blue Ukraine.
It will ride again! Beleive me, Ostap the Odessa hero!
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?
As you noted Shukhevich was declared a Hero of Ukraine Ukraine by
Ukraine's head of state.  So it's no longer about "Lviv people."
Frankly, the two cannot be compared.  Shukhevich, whatever his
politics, was unambiguously pro-Ukrainian, Catherine was anti-
Ukrainian.  Whose statue should be less controversial in Ukraine?
Catherine was pro-Odessa though. Shukhevich was anti-Jewish, anti-
Polish and anti-Russian. Whose statue should be less controversial in
Odessa? Certainly, even Tymoshenko's (!!!!!!!!!!) BYuTy Party in
Odessa loves Catherine and (I am sure) hates Shukhevych.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Read what Wiki says about Odessa and let the readers decide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
But the signs on many mountain rouads are in Ukrainian only. Imagine
õ×ÁÇÁ! šïÖÅÌÅÄÉÃÁ! šúÒÏÂÉ ÚÁÐÉÎËÕ! ðÅÒÅ×iÒØ ÇÁÊÍÁ!
Uvaga! Ozheleditsa! Zrobi zapinku! Perevir' gajma!
÷ÎÉÍÁÎÉÅ! çÏÌÏÌÅÄ! úÁÍÅÄÌÉÓØ. ðÒÏ×ÅÒØ ÔÏÒÍÏÚÁ!
Vnimanie! Gololed! Zamedlis'. Prover' tormoza!
Attention! Solid Ice! Slow down! Check breaks!
So Crimeans are so stupid that they don't know which of their own
local roads get icy?
So, in your opinion, all road signs in the World are only for
visitors?

If so - most visitors to Krymea come from East Ukraine, Russia,
Latvia, Belarus and other ex-USSR places, where they speak Russian and
don't understand much Ukrainian. Is Yuschenko trying to reduce the car-
owning population of Latvia? :-)

Silly. Such arguments can work with people like Johnny, Lorad, Peteris
or Henry, but not with Ostap Bender. Even such luminaries as
Predvoditel Dvorianstvsa (!) Kisa Vorobianinoff, Samuel Beckett-
Panikowsky, Adam Smith-Kozliewicz and Alexander Pushkin-Balaganov
respected Ostap's brilliant intelligence.

Fizkult!

Ostap.
The Black Monk
2008-02-27 03:15:49 UTC
Permalink
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
It was Yulka Tymoshenko's party that erected the statue to
Catherine in Odessa, Keep also in mind that Roman Shukhevich, who is
regarded as a major Nazi war criminal and genocidist in much of
Ukraine outside of Halycia
And 60% of Americans think Saddam was responsible for 9-11.  Why give
in to ignorance?
Moreover, wikipedia has a nice article about Shukhevich and the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
LOL. A lot of the text there comes from me.
Cool!
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Several weeks ago, I tried to bring objectivity and "only naked facts"
to the Wiki texts about the Lviv Civilian Massacre and Shukhevich.
However, a certain person named "Bandurist" just kept on deleating all
references from the Jewish and Polish sources and inserting many
paragraphs of his own personal opinions. I gave up.
(Yes, Bandurist, not Benderist. Evidently he plays the sexy bandura
music for Australian audiences as a profession)
Why don't you and I go to those pages and alternate in writing
onjective bi-partisan text there until we reach an agreement, and then
defend it from all propagandists?
Please!
What's not objective about the article? The least objective part is
what the anonymous Russian historian wrote. This part seems rather
conclusive:

"An international commission was set up at The Hague in the
Netherlands to carry out independent investigations. The members were
four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen,
former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament
Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law
professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt
Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses
between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After
four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by
witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the
accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then
Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no
foundation in fact."
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of Odessa,
Any polls conducted about this attitude?
No. But I have a hilarious true story to tell you on this subject.
http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/166/VZR/o05.htm
The legendary Jewish mayor of Odessa Gurwitz re-named one of the
streets in Odessa, previously named after the great poet and diplomat
Griboyedov, into "Shukhevich Street".  For years, Uke nationalsits
were using this as proof that even Jews and Odessa people love
Shukhevych. I did some digging and discovered Gurwitz' own explanation
"Before the 1917 Revolution, there was a street called Jewish Street.
When we came to power and returned Odessa streets their pre-Revolution
names, it turned out that the City Prosecutor's Office, The Oblast
police headquarters, and the Odessa Region Ukrainian KGB were all
"Jewish Street". So, they changed their mailing address to
'Griboyedov Street", the cross-street there. When I found out, I
renamed Griboyedov Street into "Shukhevich Street".  So, the KGB was
now on the street named after a man, who had killed myriads of
KGBists. KGB immediately changed their mailing address to "Jewish
Street". See, there are people in the World who are even worse than
Jews!"
Эта улица была Еврейской до революции. И оказалось, что на этой улице
находятся, во-первых, городская прокуратура, во-вторых, областное
управление милиции и, в-третьих, областное управление КГБ. Руководству
«переулок Грибоедова», где у них был вход в отдел писем... Когда мне
это доложили, я переименовал переулок Грибоедова в Шухевича! И когда
управление КГБ оказалось на улице имени человека, который убил кучу
кагэбистов, они сразу поняли, что на Еврейской лучше. Видите, бывает
что-то хуже евреев…"[7]
Awesome. But I don't know what the local Chekist's problem was in
Odesa - the KGB seems to have developed respect for Shukhevich,
especially following an influx of western Ukrainians into the KGB
starting in the 1960's (Sudoplatov and the Ukrainian-hunters of the
earlier era were marginalized eventually) that coincided with the end
of much repression. UPA's last leader, Vasyl Kuk, was rehabilitated,
obtained a philosophy degree, and worked comfortably in some institute
on Kiev. One retired KGB/SBU general is even the proud younger
brother of an UPA fighter. And remember that it was the SBU that
convinced Yanukovich not to resort to bloodshed during the Orange
Revolution, with its snipers protecting the demonstrators.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Moreover, most Jews have left Odessa - there are now 36,000 out of a
population of 1 million.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl451.htm
Odesa is now mostly populated by the same Sovok white trash as live in
Donetsk -  it's now become a cultural and intellectual wasteland like
the rest of Blue Ukraine.
It will ride again! Beleive me, Ostap the Odessa hero!
Only if the Jews return.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?
As you noted Shukhevich was declared a Hero of Ukraine Ukraine by
Ukraine's head of state.  So it's no longer about "Lviv people."
Frankly, the two cannot be compared.  Shukhevich, whatever his
politics, was unambiguously pro-Ukrainian, Catherine was anti-
Ukrainian.  Whose statue should be less controversial in Ukraine?
Catherine was pro-Odessa though. Shukhevich was anti-Jewish, anti-
Polish and anti-Russian.
He was a pro-Ukrainian who believed in violent means to achieve his
ends. There is no evidence that he nor that UPA were opposed to Jews,
Poles or Russians who didn't stand in the way of a free Ukraine
(though they were brutal towards those whom they thought did, which
pretty meant most of the Polish population). There were Jewish UPA
members, one of whom received UPA's highest military honor. One of
the most famous Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist members, the
poetess Olena Teliha, was a 100% ethnic Russian born in St.
Petersburg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olena_Teliha

They were fascists, but not racists (much like Mussolini's fascists,
with his Jewish Admiral)
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Whose statue should be less controversial in
Odessa? Certainly, even Tymoshenko's (!!!!!!!!!!) BYuTy Party in
Odessa  loves Catherine and (I am sure) hates Shukhevych.
A hatred based on ignorance if they believe fairytales such as
"Shukhevich the slaughterer of Jews".
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Read what Wiki says about Odessa and let the readers decide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
But the signs on many mountain rouads are in Ukrainian only. Imagine
õ×ÁÇÁ! šïÖÅÌÅÄÉÃÁ! šúÒÏÂÉ ÚÁÐÉÎËÕ! ðÅÒÅ×iÒØ ÇÁÊÍÁ!
Uvaga! Ozheleditsa! Zrobi zapinku! Perevir' gajma!
÷ÎÉÍÁÎÉÅ! çÏÌÏÌÅÄ! úÁÍÅÄÌÉÓØ. ðÒÏ×ÅÒØ ÔÏÒÍÏÚÁ!
Vnimanie! Gololed! Zamedlis'. Prover' tormoza!
Attention! Solid Ice! Slow down! Check breaks!
So Crimeans are so stupid that they don't know which of their own
local roads get icy?
So, in your opinion, all road signs in the World are only for
visitors?
If so - most visitors to Krymea come from East Ukraine, Russia,
Latvia, Belarus and other ex-USSR places, where they speak Russian and
don't understand much Ukrainian. Is Yuschenko trying to reduce the car-
owning population of Latvia? :-)
So the problem is one of not being tourist friendly, rather than one
of trying to kill off Crimea's Russians through traffic accidents.

regards,

BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Silly. Such arguments can work with people like Johnny, Lorad, Peteris
or Henry, but not with Ostap Bender. Even such luminaries as
Predvoditel Dvorianstvsa (!) Kisa Vorobianinoff, Samuel Beckett-
Panikowsky, Adam Smith-Kozliewicz and Alexander Pushkin-Balaganov
respected Ostap's brilliant intelligence.
Fizkult!
Ostap.
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-27 11:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
It was Yulka Tymoshenko's party that erected the statue to
Catherine in Odessa,
Moreover, wikipedia has a nice article about Shukhevich and the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
LOL. A lot of the text there comes from me.
Cool!
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Several weeks ago, I tried to bring objectivity and "only naked facts"
to the Wiki texts about the Lviv Civilian Massacre and Shukhevich.
However, a certain person named "Bandurist" just kept on deleating all
references from the Jewish and Polish sources and inserting many
paragraphs of his own personal opinions. I gave up.
(Yes, Bandurist, not Benderist. Evidently he plays the sexy bandura
music for Australian audiences as a profession)
Why don't you and I go to those pages and alternate in writing
onjective bi-partisan text there until we reach an agreement, and then
defend it from all propagandists?
Please!
What's not objective about the article?  The least objective part is
what the anonymous Russian historian wrote.  This part seems rather
"An international commission was set up at The Hague in the
Netherlands to carry out independent investigations. The members were
four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen,
former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament
Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law
professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt
Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses
between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After
four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by
witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the
accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then
Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no
foundation in fact."
BM, what are you talking about!!!!??? Didn't you read the rest of that
paragraph?!!!!!!!!!!:

----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29

An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands
to carry out independent investigations. The members were four former
anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish
foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn
Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor
Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch.
Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between
November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four
months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses
from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations
against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and
currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact. In
the same book, de Zayas also claims that the Jewish pogroms were in
retaliation for the prior "Jewish-dominated NKVD" massacres, that they
were carried out exclusively by the civilian Ukrainian population of
Lviv, and that the German Nazis did not participate in the massacres
of Jews but instead did their best to defend Jews. [14]"

---------------------------------------------------------

The author of that book, "Dr. de Zayas" is a professional Nazi-
defender! What kind of a filthy neo-Nazi revisionist would claim that
the Holocaust was done by average civilian Ukrainians and that the
Nazis were doing their best to protect Jews???!!!!! This is insane!!
How can you, a Ukrainian, tolerate this lie???!!!!

How come nobody else remembers this Haage trial except for this neo-
Nazis?

I tried to put into question the veracity of this outrageous anti-
Ukrainian pro-nazi position, but Bandurist just kept on putting back
all thius filth.

And much of the rest of Bandurist's "contributions" to this article
are equally inapropriate and demagogical:

-------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29

Comtemporary Russian allegations (2006)
Recently the participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in the above
mentioned atrocities is claimed by a writer writing under the non-de-
plume of Rusin in his anti-Ukrainian treatise
---------------------------------

1. Rusin is Ukrainian, not Russian
2. His "treatise" is not anti-Ukrainian, it is anti-UP
3. How does Bandurist know that Rusin is "non-de-plume"(sic)? He had
never heard of Rusin until I posted reference to his book.
4. Non-de-plume???!!!

----------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
The latter is very doubtful.
-------------------------------

What is this? An encyclopedia or a place for Bandurist to express his
deeply-held ambitions, beleifs and doubts?!!!

There is a whole paragraph devoted to Sergei Chuguyev's book (no
mention if this is a "Non-de-plume" or not). Why? Because Bandurist
didn't see any text in Chuguev's book that talks about Nachtigall's
participation or non-participation. Also notice that there is no link
to this book. In fact, "Chuguyev" doesn't exist in nature. His name is
Chuyev. Seems like Bandurist just wants us to beleive that he read
this book and didn't see Nachtigall mentioned. How can we know?

And how about this insult to intelligence?:

---------------------------------------------------
The participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in the above mentioned
atrocities is described by an Ukrainian historian Rusin, who states:
"The warriors from Nachtigall... took Commuminsts, Poles, Jews in
their homes and hanged them on balconies and light posts, or killed
them with hammers... While killing ciivlians, Nachtigall warriors
handed out leaflets to Ukrainian civilians calling upon them to
partake in the pogroms." [17] . He made no mention of the
participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in any of the above
mentioned atrocities.
---------------------------------------------

He made no mention of the participation of the Nachtigall
Battalion ??????????????????????

Next:

----------------------------------------------
Despite the vindication by these committees and other evidence from
groups traditionally opposed to the Nachtigall Battalion accusations
of improprieties by the Battalion continue to surface.
-----------------------------------------------------

What is this? An homage to Dr. Goebbels?

Also, notice how everything anti-Nazi and anti-UPA is cast into doubts
(epitets like "Non-de-plume", "anti-Ukrainian", etc), while for every
person, who shares Bandurist's views, Bandurist gives all his titles,
accomplishments, etc, on and on, and on, and on, a sif this is an
article about these hisotrians and not about the Lviv massacre.

BM, if you want the Uke side to be properly presented, please help me
make this garbage into an objective encyclopedia article. I really
need help.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of Odessa,
Any polls conducted about this attitude?
No. But I have a hilarious true story to tell you on this subject.
http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/166/VZR/o05.htm
The legendary Jewish mayor of Odessa Gurwitz re-named one of the
streets in Odessa, previously named after the great poet and diplomat
Griboyedov, into "Shukhevich Street".  For years, Uke nationalsits
were using this as proof that even Jews and Odessa people love
Shukhevych. I did some digging and discovered Gurwitz' own explanation
"Before the 1917 Revolution, there was a street called Jewish Street.
When we came to power and returned Odessa streets their pre-Revolution
names, it turned out that the City Prosecutor's Office, The Oblast
police headquarters, and the Odessa Region Ukrainian KGB were all
"Jewish Street". So, they changed their mailing address to
'Griboyedov Street", the cross-street there. When I found out, I
renamed Griboyedov Street into "Shukhevich Street".  So, the KGB was
now on the street named after a man, who had killed myriads of
KGBists. KGB immediately changed their mailing address to "Jewish
Street". See, there are people in the World who are even worse than
Jews!"
Awesome.  But I don't know what the local Chekist's problem was in
Odesa - the KGB seems to have developed respect for Shukhevich,
especially following an influx of western Ukrainians into the KGB
starting in the 1960's (Sudoplatov and the Ukrainian-hunters of the
earlier era were marginalized eventually) that coincided with the end
of much repression.  UPA's last leader, Vasyl Kuk, was rehabilitated,
obtained a philosophy degree, and worked comfortably in some institute
on Kiev.  One retired KGB/SBU general is even the proud younger
brother of an UPA fighter.  And remember that it was the SBU that
convinced Yanukovich not to resort to bloodshed during the Orange
Revolution, with its snipers protecting the demonstrators.
But this is Odessa (!!!!!!!!) KGB! Everybody in Odessa and East
Ukraine hates people, who fought on the Nazi side, be he Shukhevich or
Vlasov. Even the Tymoshenko Party in Odessa shares these beleifs.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Moreover, most Jews have left Odessa - there are now 36,000 out of a
population of 1 million.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl451.htm
Odesa is now mostly populated by the same Sovok white trash as live in
Donetsk -  it's now become a cultural and intellectual wasteland like
the rest of Blue Ukraine.
It will ride again! Beleive me, Ostap the Odessa hero!
Only if the Jews return.
Many great Odessans were not Jewish. These things rub off.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?
As you noted Shukhevich was declared a Hero of Ukraine Ukraine by
Ukraine's head of state.  So it's no longer about "Lviv people."
Frankly, the two cannot be compared.  Shukhevich, whatever his
politics, was unambiguously pro-Ukrainian, Catherine was anti-
Ukrainian.  Whose statue should be less controversial in Ukraine?
Catherine was pro-Odessa though. Shukhevich was anti-Jewish, anti-
Polish and anti-Russian.
He was a pro-Ukrainian who believed in violent means to achieve his
ends.  There is no evidence that he nor that UPA were opposed to Jews,
Poles or Russians who didn't stand in the way of a free Ukraine
(though they were brutal towards those whom they thought did, which
pretty meant most of the Polish population).  There were Jewish UPA
members, one of whom received UPA's highest military honor.
And the anti-semitic LDPR party was founded by Jew Zhrinovsky, who
remains its Fuhrer. And the Nazi Field Marshall Milch, who received
all Nazi's highest military honors, was Jewish. And Jew Karl Marx
hated Jews. And Jew Noam Chomsky is revered by all Israel-haters.
Post by The Black Monk
 One of
the most famous Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist members, the
poetess Olena Teliha, was a 100% ethnic Russian born in St.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olena_Teliha
They were fascists, but not racists (much like Mussolini's fascists,
with his Jewish Admiral)
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Whose statue should be less controversial in
Odessa? Certainly, even Tymoshenko's (!!!!!!!!!!) BYuTy Party in
Odessa  loves Catherine and (I am sure) hates Shukhevych.
A hatred based on ignorance if they believe fairytales such as
"Shukhevich the slaughterer of Jews".
But Nachtigall soldiers did do just that.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Read what Wiki says about Odessa and let the readers decide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa
...cut...
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
Crimea is an autonomous region with Russian as an official regional
language, alongside Ukrainian and Tatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
But the signs on many mountain rouads are in Ukrainian only. Imagine
õ×ÁÇÁ! šïÖÅÌÅÄÉÃÁ! šúÒÏÂÉ ÚÁÐÉÎËÕ! ðÅÒÅ×iÒØ ÇÁÊÍÁ!
Uvaga! Ozheleditsa! Zrobi zapinku! Perevir' gajma!
÷ÎÉÍÁÎÉÅ! çÏÌÏÌÅÄ! úÁÍÅÄÌÉÓØ. ðÒÏ×ÅÒØ ÔÏÒÍÏÚÁ!
Vnimanie! Gololed! Zamedlis'. Prover' tormoza!
Attention! Solid Ice! Slow down! Check breaks!
So Crimeans are so stupid that they don't know which of their own
local roads get icy?
So, in your opinion, all road signs in the World are only for
visitors?
If so - most visitors to Krymea come from East Ukraine, Russia,
Latvia, Belarus and other ex-USSR places, where they speak Russian and
don't understand much Ukrainian. Is Yuschenko trying to reduce the car-
owning population of Latvia? :-)
So the problem is one of not being tourist friendly, rather than one
of trying to kill off Crimea's Russians through traffic accidents.
You thought that I, Ostap Bender, was serious about the "killing off"
remark? :-)

Signs in Krymea should be in both languages.

The issue is that Russian-speaking places like Krymea should be
treated as "minority regions" and allowed to speak their regional
language without restrictions. They should all know enough of the
state language - Ukrainian - to function well in the Uke society, but
they should be allowed to continue to practice their own language and
pass it on to their chidren. The alternative is - becoming another
Kosovo or Transdniestria or Abkhazia.

And all Ukrainains should be allowed to watch and listen to films in
whatever language they choose. Even Verka-Danilka-Andryushka
Serdyuchka should be allowed to speak her/his/its invented Mongolian
language and sing: "Russia goodbye, lazha tumbay, lyozha davay!"
The Black Monk
2008-02-28 14:25:33 UTC
Permalink
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
What's not objective about the article? The least objective part is
what the anonymous Russian historian wrote. This part seems rather
"An international commission was set up at The Hague in the
Netherlands to carry out independent investigations. The members were
four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen,
former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament
Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law
professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt
Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses
between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After
four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by
witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the
accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then
Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no
foundation in fact."
BM, what are you talking about!!!!??? Didn't you read the rest of that
----------------------------------http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands
to carry out independent investigations. The members were four former
anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish
foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn
Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor
Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch.
Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between
November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four
months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses
from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations
against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and
currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact. In
the same book, de Zayas also claims that the Jewish pogroms were in
retaliation for the prior "Jewish-dominated NKVD" massacres, that they
were carried out exclusively by the civilian Ukrainian population of
Lviv, and that the German Nazis did not participate in the massacres
of Jews but instead did their best to defend Jews. [14]"
---------------------------------------------------------
The author of that book, "Dr. de Zayas" is a professional Nazi-
defender! What kind of a filthy neo-Nazi revisionist would claim that
the Holocaust was done by average civilian Ukrainians and that the
Nazis were doing their best to protect Jews???!!!!! This is insane!!
How can you, a Ukrainian, tolerate this lie???!!!!
Was the "German Nazis" quote in the wikipedia article an example of
your mischief? The actual chapter written by de Zayas stated that it
was the German military who did their best to defend Jews from axcts
of desperate rage by Ukrainian civilians, not Nazis. Not all German
soldiers were Nazis, you know:

....German military authorities had issued orders to prevent violence
against the Jewish population.

General Max Winkler: "I remember [hearing] the figure of some 4,000
corpses [murdered Ukrainians - BM].... As a reaction to those murders
the Ukrainian population immediately started to drag the Jews out of
their homes and to abuse them in the streets.... The provisional
commander of Lvov, Colonel Fingergerst of the 49th Army Corps ...
succeeded in stopping [these excesses] by giving orders to German
troops and sending special patrols through the streets."

General Egbert Picker: "In the courtyard of the state prison I saw
many rows of corpses, laid next to each other, many of them with the
most grotesque mutilations.... I also saw in a small courtyard ...
some 15 corpses, apparently Jews who had been killed as reprisal by
the local population shortly after the Russians evacuated the
town.... Jews were being taken to the prison by local civilians
wearing armbands, and in one case they were being beaten with a
bat.... General Kübler ... told me ... that he had ordered such acts
of violence by the civilian population against Jewish persons to be
immediately stopped."

The entire chapter describing these events is here:

http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml

This is what prompted the massacre of innocent Jews by Ukrainian
civilians (these are just some of many examples):

On 7 July 1941 Josefa Soziada, a Polish widow, testified before Judge
Möller: "On Monday, 30 June 1941 ... I went to the NKVD prison,
because I had heard that German troops were already in town. I first
went to the courtyard, where I at once saw numerous corpses, including
those of three men whose color had turned dark, and of a woman who was
totally naked.... through a window ... I saw many corpses butchered on
a table.... through another window I saw the body of a girl hanging
from a lamp; she was about eight years old. The corpse was naked and
had been hanged with a towel."

Also on 7 July 1941 Irene Loesch, a Ukrainian housewife, testified
that she had gone to the same prison on 28 or 29 June to look for her
mother, "who had been arrested some three months before because of her
religious convictions: as wife of a pastor of the Greek Orthodox
church, she had asked a member of her parish why he did not go to
church. When I entered the prison I immediately saw dead people in
the first cell. The bodies were mutilated.... I saw a woman with a
breast cut off.... Another woman had had her abdomen slit open; she
had been pregnant.... Before that I had already been to the
Samarstinov prison to search for my mother. There I could only see
from the outside into a room that was filled up with corpses all the
way to the ceiling."

...

So, many of the relatives of these victims blamed Jews collectively
and, unable to administer justice upon the NKVD who had fled the city,
turned upon the local innocent Jews. There is nothing surprising
about these sad events.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
How come nobody else remembers this Haage trial except for this neo-
Nazis?
Here are some reviews of the book you slanderously claim was written
by a neo-Nazi:

"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It
is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the
Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new
book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer,
Journal of Soviet Military Studies

"The facts were painstakingly researched by the author. Archives were
consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an
academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of
sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof,
Netherlands International Law Review

"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army

"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of
original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and
necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological
problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after
armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts

"Dr. de Zayas first came upon the previously undiscovered 226 volumes
of WUSt documents as a Fulbright fellow on leave from his studies in
International Law at Harvard. After concluding his legal studies, de
Zayas subsequently earned a Ph.D. in history and the University of
Göttingen, where he later became an associate. The Institute supported
the research on which this study is based and arranged for the
assistance of a Dutch international law specialist, Dr. Walter
Rabus ... Mindful that the WUSt might have been manipulated by
Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry, the authors were punctilious in their
verification. They carefully examined the documents for internal
consistency and continuity and then verified the reports and
testimony, where possible, with judges, medical examiners and
witnesses still alive. In addition, they compared WUSt documents with
those of other German agencies in seven additional German archives,
and with documents in British,.Dutch, Swiss, and American archives. In
this exhaustive analysis, it becomes clear that the WUSt operated with
scrupulous objectivity and therefore that its documents constitute a
valuable new source for the study of the conduct of war. This
carefully documented administrative history together with its
excellent bibliography will therefore become an important introduction
to this extensive archive. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle is at
once an interesting history of an internal agency of the Third Reich
and an important archival and historiographical contribution to the
study of the war." German Studies Review, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Feb., 1981),
pp. 150-151.

"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times,
London

"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge
Law Journal
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I tried to put into question the veracity of this outrageous anti-
Ukrainian pro-nazi position, but Bandurist just kept on putting back
all thius filth.
And much of the rest of Bandurist's "contributions" to this article
-------------------http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
Comtemporary Russian allegations (2006)
Recently the participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in the above
mentioned atrocities is claimed by a writer writing under the non-de-
plume of Rusin in his anti-Ukrainian treatise
---------------------------------
1. Rusin is Ukrainian, not Russian
2. His "treatise" is not anti-Ukrainian, it is anti-UP
3. How does Bandurist know that Rusin is "non-de-plume"(sic)? He had
never heard of Rusin until I posted reference to his book.
4. Non-de-plume???!!!
----------------http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
The latter is very doubtful.
-------------------------------
What is this? An encyclopedia or a place for Bandurist to express his
deeply-held ambitions, beleifs and doubts?!!!
There is a whole paragraph devoted to Sergei Chuguyev's book (no
mention if this is a "Non-de-plume" or not). Why? Because Bandurist
didn't see any text in Chuguev's book that talks about Nachtigall's
participation or non-participation. Also notice that there is no link
to this book. In fact, "Chuguyev" doesn't exist in nature. His name is
Chuyev. Seems like Bandurist just wants us to beleive that he read
this book and didn't see Nachtigall mentioned. How can we know?
---------------------------------------------------
The participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in the above mentioned
"The warriors from Nachtigall... took Commuminsts, Poles, Jews in
their homes and hanged them on balconies and light posts, or killed
them with hammers... While killing ciivlians, Nachtigall warriors
handed out leaflets to Ukrainian civilians calling upon them to
partake in the pogroms." [17] . He made no mention of the
participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in any of the above
mentioned atrocities.
---------------------------------------------
He made no mention of the participation of the Nachtigall
Battalion ??????????????????????
That source also ridiculously claimed that Nachtigall was led by Greek
Catholic Ukrainian priests! It shouldn't even be in the wikipedia
article at all!
Post by o***@hotmail.com
----------------------------------------------
Despite the vindication by these committees and other evidence from
groups traditionally opposed to the Nachtigall Battalion accusations
of improprieties by the Battalion continue to surface.
-----------------------------------------------------
What is this? An homage to Dr. Goebbels?
Also, notice how everything anti-Nazi and anti-UPA is cast into doubts
(epitets like "Non-de-plume", "anti-Ukrainian", etc), while for every
person, who shares Bandurist's views, Bandurist gives all his titles,
accomplishments, etc, on and on, and on, and on, a sif this is an
article about these hisotrians and not about the Lviv massacre.
BM, if you want the Uke side to be properly presented, please help me
make this garbage into an objective encyclopedia article. I really
need help.
We can start by removing the ridiculous claims by the anonymous writer
"Rusin" with his fairytales about Ukrainian priests leading commandos
to massacre Jews, and references to German military personnel as
"Nazis". We should also add the background to the massacres to the
article.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of Odessa,
Any polls conducted about this attitude?
No. But I have a hilarious true story to tell you on this subject.
http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/166/VZR/o05.htm
The legendary Jewish mayor of Odessa Gurwitz re-named one of the
streets in Odessa, previously named after the great poet and diplomat
Griboyedov, into "Shukhevich Street". For years, Uke nationalsits
were using this as proof that even Jews and Odessa people love
Shukhevych. I did some digging and discovered Gurwitz' own explanation
"Before the 1917 Revolution, there was a street called Jewish Street.
When we came to power and returned Odessa streets their pre-Revolution
names, it turned out that the City Prosecutor's Office, The Oblast
police headquarters, and the Odessa Region Ukrainian KGB were all
"Jewish Street". So, they changed their mailing address to
'Griboyedov Street", the cross-street there. When I found out, I
renamed Griboyedov Street into "Shukhevich Street". So, the KGB was
now on the street named after a man, who had killed myriads of
KGBists. KGB immediately changed their mailing address to "Jewish
Street". See, there are people in the World who are even worse than
Jews!"
Awesome. But I don't know what the local Chekist's problem was in
Odesa - the KGB seems to have developed respect for Shukhevich,
especially following an influx of western Ukrainians into the KGB
starting in the 1960's (Sudoplatov and the Ukrainian-hunters of the
earlier era were marginalized eventually) that coincided with the end
of much repression. UPA's last leader, Vasyl Kuk, was rehabilitated,
obtained a philosophy degree, and worked comfortably in some institute
on Kiev. One retired KGB/SBU general is even the proud younger
brother of an UPA fighter. And remember that it was the SBU that
convinced Yanukovich not to resort to bloodshed during the Orange
Revolution, with its snipers protecting the demonstrators.
But this is Odessa (!!!!!!!!) KGB! Everybody in Odessa and East
Ukraine hates people, who fought on the Nazi side, be he Shukhevich or
Vlasov. Even the Tymoshenko Party in Odessa shares these beleifs.
Shukhevich spent more time fighting against the Nazis than with them.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Moreover, most Jews have left Odessa - there are now 36,000 out of a
population of 1 million.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl451.htm
Odesa is now mostly populated by the same Sovok white trash as live in
Donetsk - it's now become a cultural and intellectual wasteland like
the rest of Blue Ukraine.
It will ride again! Beleive me, Ostap the Odessa hero!
Only if the Jews return.
Many great Odessans were not Jewish. These things rub off.
Those ones left to, after the Revolution. Now its a cesspool like
Donetsk, capable only of producing drug addicts, whores, athletes and
gangsters, like the Detroit ghetto and the rest of Yanukovich-
country.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by v***@yahoo.com
has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?
As you noted Shukhevich was declared a Hero of Ukraine Ukraine by
Ukraine's head of state. So it's no longer about "Lviv people."
Frankly, the two cannot be compared. Shukhevich, whatever his
politics, was unambiguously pro-Ukrainian, Catherine was anti-
Ukrainian. Whose statue should be less controversial in Ukraine?
Catherine was pro-Odessa though. Shukhevich was anti-Jewish, anti-
Polish and anti-Russian.
He was a pro-Ukrainian who believed in violent means to achieve his
ends. There is no evidence that he nor that UPA were opposed to Jews,
Poles or Russians who didn't stand in the way of a free Ukraine
(though they were brutal towards those whom they thought did, which
pretty meant most of the Polish population). There were Jewish UPA
members, one of whom received UPA's highest military honor.
And the anti-semitic LDPR party was founded by Jew Zhrinovsky, who
remains its Fuhrer. And the Nazi Field Marshall Milch, who received
all Nazi's highest military honors, was Jewish. And Jew Karl Marx
hated Jews. And Jew Noam Chomsky is revered by all Israel-haters.
Well, Zhirinovsky claimed to be half-"lawyer." About Milch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch

In 1935, Milch's ethnicity came into question when rumours began to
circulate that his father, Anton Milch, was a Jew. This prompted an
investigation by the Gestapo that Göring quelled by producing an
affidavit signed by Milch's mother stating that Anton was not really
the father of Erhard and his siblings, and naming their true father as
Karl Brauer, her uncle. These events and his being issued a German
Blood Certificate prompted Hermann Göring to give his famous "I decide
who is a Jew!" quote.
....

In contrast UPA's Jewish personnel were openly Jewish. The wife of
one of the OUN's founders was Jewish, too. UPA also saved some Jewish
families from the Nazis. UPA's attitudes towards Jews were similar to
those of Franco or Mussolini who were not antisemites either.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec90.html

Don't mention that Mussolini saved Jews: it is Politically
Inconvenient to do so
Frank Johnson

Weidenfeld and Nicolson is about to publish a big biography of
Mussolini by my friend Nicholas Farrell, which contains the following
passage: 'Just as none of the victorious powers went to war with
Germany to save the Jews neither did Mussolini go to war with them to
exterminate the Jews. Indeed, once the Holocaust was under way he and
his fascists refused to deport Jews to the Nazi death camps thus
saving thousands of Jewish lives -- far more than Oskar Schindler.'


Mussolini saved more Jews than Schindler! For once, the word
'controversial', so often used to describe any old bit of routine
leftism, is justified. That Mussolini saved Jews has long been known,
especially to non-left-wing Italians, though that includes few Italian
intellectuals. But not known widely; it is not something which Anglo-
Saxons emphasise about Mussolini. Was not Mussolini Hitler's ally? How
could he have saved Jews?

A few years ago the Guardian journalist Paul Webster discussed it in
his book on Pétain and the Jews -- Pétain's Crime -- to compare Pétain's
attitude to the Jews unfavourably with Mussolini's. But the passage in
Mr Webster's book aroused no wider interest in Britain, his subject
being Pétain rather than Mussolini.

A few academics writing in English have mentioned the matter, but in a
rather cool way. By using the startling comparison with Schindler, Mr
Farrell is the first writer in English to give it the weight that it
deserves -- to dramatise it. This could be because he is a journalist
rather than an academic. Some historians, like Tacitus, Gibbon,
Macaulay and A.J.P. Taylor have had an eye for a story; but not the
average academic historian. Unless, in many cases, it is an old left-
wing story that has been told over and over again. Potential readers
should be wary of academics reviewing Mr Farrell's book.

That a right-wing dictator could save Jews is the sort of information
that has not been allowed to enter the Anglo-Saxon consciousness
because it is politically inconvenient. Politically Convenient
historiography does not take account of shades of white and black. No
grey is allowed. Once it is agreed that someone was a right-winger,
anything good that he does is either not emphasised or it is
suppressed. It is Politically Inconvenient that Mussolini saved Jews.

During the war, many Jews from various parts of Europe saved
themselves by reaching Franco's Spain. Some made their way to
Argentina, including Perón's Argentina. The recently deceased Lord
Bauer -- Peter Bauer, the dissident free-marketeer among LSE
economists, himself born a Hungarian Jew -- delighted in telling me of
a Hungarian Jew who made his way through Franco's Spain to Cuba
(another right-wing dictatorship), later to help invent the
contraceptive pill.
...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
One of
the most famous Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist members, the
poetess Olena Teliha, was a 100% ethnic Russian born in St.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olena_Teliha
They were fascists, but not racists (much like Mussolini's fascists,
with his Jewish Admiral)
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Whose statue should be less controversial in
Odessa? Certainly, even Tymoshenko's (!!!!!!!!!!) BYuTy Party in
Odessa loves Catherine and (I am sure) hates Shukhevych.
A hatred based on ignorance if they believe fairytales such as
"Shukhevich the slaughterer of Jews".
But Nachtigall soldiers did do just that.
According to Soviet fairytales.


...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Signs in Krymea should be in both languages.
The issue is that Russian-speaking places like Krymea should be
treated as "minority regions" and allowed to speak their regional
language without restrictions. They should all know enough of the
state language - Ukrainian - to function well in the Uke society, but
they should be allowed to continue to practice their own language and
pass it on to their chidren. The alternative is - becoming another
Kosovo or Transdniestria or Abkhazia.
And all Ukrainains should be allowed to watch and listen to films in
whatever language they choose. Even Verka-Danilka-Andryushka
Serdyuchka should be allowed to speak her/his/its invented Mongolian
language and sing: "Russia goodbye, lazha tumbay, lyozha davay!"
I agree to the above, specifically and only with respect to Crimea due
to its unique history. The old Cossack market town of Kharkiv and the
Zaporozhian lands of modern Dnipropetrovsk were Ukrainian long before
the Russian colonists came in.

regards,

BM
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-01 20:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
What's not objective about the article?  The least objective part is
what the anonymous Russian historian wrote.  This part seems rather
"An international commission was set up at The Hague in the
Netherlands to carry out independent investigations. The members were
four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen,
former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament
Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law
professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt
Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses
between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After
four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by
witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the
accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then
Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no
foundation in fact."
BM, what are you talking about!!!!??? Didn't you read the rest of that
----------------------------------http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands
to carry out independent investigations. The members were four former
anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish
foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn
Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor
Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch.
Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between
November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four
months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses
from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations
against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and
currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact. In
the same book, de Zayas also claims that the Jewish pogroms were in
retaliation for the prior "Jewish-dominated NKVD" massacres, that they
were carried out exclusively by the civilian Ukrainian population of
Lviv, and that the German Nazis did not participate in the massacres
of Jews but instead did their best to defend Jews. [14]"
---------------------------------------------------------
The author of that book, "Dr. de Zayas" is a professional Nazi-
defender! What kind of a filthy neo-Nazi revisionist would claim that
the Holocaust was done by average civilian Ukrainians and that the
Nazis were doing their best to protect Jews???!!!!! This is insane!!
How can you, a Ukrainian, tolerate this lie???!!!!
Was the "German Nazis" quote in the wikipedia article an example of
your mischief?  
Of course. De Zayas is a Nazi revisionist. he wrote about 10 books,
describing how poor Germans suffered the hands of British, Americans,
Russians and Poles duirng and after WWII. He minimises German
Holocaust crimes and blames loca Polish and Ukrainian civilians for
the Holocaust. He passingly defends Nachtigall only because he wants
to defend the German commanders to whom Shkhevich reported. he claims
that every single Jew was killed exculsively by the Ukrainian
civilians, and that Poles were not killed at all.

Bandurist chose De Zays and devoted 100 times more room to his
Holocaust denial/blaming of civilians than to all the writings of the
Holocaust Encyclopedia and the Holocaust Museum.
Post by The Black Monk
The actual chapter written by de Zayas stated that it
was the German military who did their best to defend Jews from axcts
of desperate rage by Ukrainian civilians, not Nazis.  Not all German
....German military authorities had issued orders to prevent violence
against the Jewish population.
General Max Winkler: "I remember [hearing] the figure of some 4,000
corpses [murdered Ukrainians - BM]....  As a reaction to those murders
the Ukrainian population immediately started to drag the Jews out of
their homes and to abuse them in the streets....  The provisional
commander of Lvov, Colonel Fingergerst of the 49th Army Corps ...
succeeded in stopping [these excesses] by giving orders to German
troops and sending special patrols through the streets."
General Egbert Picker: "In the courtyard of the state prison I saw
many rows of corpses, laid next to each other, many of them with the
most grotesque mutilations....  I also saw in a small courtyard ...
some 15 corpses, apparently Jews who had been killed as reprisal by
the local population shortly after the Russians evacuated the
town....  Jews were being taken to the prison by local civilians
wearing armbands, and in one case they were being beaten with a
bat....  General Kübler ... told me ... that he had ordered such acts
of violence by the civilian population against Jewish persons to be
immediately stopped."
Oh yes, blame it all on Uke civilians! Those Nazi criminals, trying to
whitewash themselves, make very believable witnesses. Much more
beleivable than the Holocaust Encyclopedia these Nazis are....
Post by The Black Monk
http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml
Don't you think I know?
Post by The Black Monk
This is what prompted the massacre of innocent Jews by Ukrainian
On 7 July 1941 Josefa Soziada, a Polish widow, testified before Judge
Möller: "On Monday, 30 June 1941 ... I went to the NKVD prison,
because I had heard that German troops were already in town.  I first
went to the courtyard, where I at once saw numerous corpses, including
those of three men whose color had turned dark, and of a woman who was
totally naked.... through a window ... I saw many corpses butchered on
a table....  through another window I saw the body of a girl hanging
from a lamp; she was about eight years old.  The corpse was naked and
had been hanged with a towel."
Also on 7 July 1941 Irene Loesch, a Ukrainian housewife, testified
that she had gone to the same prison on 28 or 29 June to look for her
mother, "who had been arrested some three months before because of her
religious convictions: as wife of a pastor of the Greek Orthodox
church, she had asked a member of her parish why he did not go to
church.  When I entered the prison I immediately saw dead people in
the first cell.  The bodies were mutilated....  I saw a woman with a
breast cut off....  Another woman had had her abdomen slit open; she
had been pregnant....  Before that I had already been to the
Samarstinov prison to search for my mother.  There I could only see
from the outside into a room that was filled up with corpses all the
way to the ceiling."
...
So, many of the relatives of these victims blamed Jews collectively
and, unable to administer justice upon the NKVD who had fled the city,
turned upon the local innocent Jews.  There is nothing surprising
about these sad events.
Except that you don't murder chidren just because some other Jew
belonged to NKVD. Moreover, de Zayas claims that NKVD was "Jewish-
dominated" without a single word of evidence! Not a word! he takes it
for granted Hitler's claim that all Bolsheviks are Jewish.

Look, I cannot deny that de Zayas claims do belong to the Encyclopedia
of Holocaust denial or the KKK propaganda handbook, but not Wikipedia.

Look at that "trial at the Haague" in 1959 that cleared Oberlander.
How come de Zayas is the only person in the World who knows about it?
Wouldn't there be some mention of it anywhere else in the Internet?
Say, at some Holocaust denial sites? It seems like a major tribute to
the art of Holocaust denial and blaming locals for German Nazi crimes.
Shouldn't we ask for a second, confirming evidence?

How likely is it that the Germans really tried to stop civilians from
killing Jews? Bloody unlikely. Everybody else, including the Ukrainian
historians defending Shukhevich, say that the Nazis wanted pogroms. In
fact, the Uke KGB files specifically show that the Gemrnas ordered
Nachtigall to provoke new pogroms on 4-7 July 1941. So, the Germans
organized pogroms on July 4, but didn't want them on June 30-July
3???? How absurd and insulting to human intelligence!!!!
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
How come nobody else remembers this Haage trial except for this neo-
Nazis?
Here are some reviews of the book you slanderously claim was written
"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It
is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the
Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new
book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer,
Journal of Soviet Military Studies
"The facts were painstakingly researched by the author. Archives were
consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an
academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of
sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof,
Netherlands International Law Review
"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army
"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of
original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and
necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological
problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after
armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts
"Dr. de Zayas first came upon the previously undiscovered 226 volumes
of WUSt documents as a Fulbright fellow on leave from his studies in
International Law at Harvard. After concluding his legal studies, de
Zayas subsequently earned a Ph.D. in history and the University of
Göttingen, where he later became an associate. The Institute supported
the research on which this study is based and arranged for the
assistance of a Dutch international law specialist, Dr. Walter
Rabus ... Mindful that the WUSt might have been manipulated by
Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry, the authors were punctilious in their
verification. They carefully examined the documents for internal
consistency and continuity and then verified the reports and
testimony, where possible, with judges, medical examiners and
witnesses still alive. In addition, they compared WUSt documents with
those of other German agencies in seven additional German archives,
and with documents in British,.Dutch, Swiss, and American archives. In
this exhaustive analysis, it becomes clear that the WUSt operated with
scrupulous objectivity and therefore that its documents constitute a
valuable new source for the study of the conduct of war. This
carefully documented administrative history together with its
excellent bibliography will therefore become an important introduction
to this extensive archive. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle is at
once an interesting history of an internal agency of the Third Reich
and an important archival and historiographical contribution to the
study of the war." German Studies Review, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Feb., 1981),
pp. 150-151.
"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times,
London
"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge
Law Journal
Use your common sense. Do you beleive that on June 30 - July 3 all the
pogroms were carried out by Uke civilians, while Germans were
defending Jews, but on July 4 thos esame Germans ordered Nachtigall to
organise a second wave of pogroms? (and the latter refused, because by
that time, the Nazis were also persecuting Uke nationalsits for
declaring Uke independence on June 30 (in Lviv btw) and even threw
Nachtigall out of Lviv on July 7).

That whole article needs to re-written to present a coherent
chronological and logical sequence.

How likely is it that Uke civilain nationalists killed Jews on June 30
- July 3, while Uke military nationalists and the German Nazis tried
to stop them? And what about the murder of Uke and Polish pofessors?
Why would Uke civilians kill liberal Uke professors from Shukhevich's
and Bendera's alma materi?!!!! What nonsense. It was the German
military and Nachtigall who killed them in a pre-planned manner. The
lists had been compiled in advance, as numerous evidence shows.

Uke civilians need to be partially re-habilitated of these nonsense
accusations, and I need your help. Some Uke needs to put some sense
into this Bandurist idiot. I can make this much worse by bringing up
20 more reliable and independent sources to really damage his side. Of
course, he will keep on deleting them.

Wiki seems to be really full of errors and propagandist lies and is
good only for finding the real references that it lists at the end.
Especially when presenting Western propaganda.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I tried to put into question the veracity of this outrageous anti-
Ukrainian pro-nazi position, but Bandurist just kept on putting back
all thius filth.
And much of the rest of Bandurist's "contributions" to this article
-------------------http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
Comtemporary Russian allegations (2006)
Recently the participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in the above
mentioned atrocities is claimed by a writer writing under the non-de-
plume of Rusin in his anti-Ukrainian treatise
---------------------------------
1. Rusin is Ukrainian, not Russian
2. His "treatise" is not anti-Ukrainian, it is anti-UP
3. How does Bandurist know that Rusin is "non-de-plume"(sic)?  He had
never heard of Rusin until I posted reference to his book.
4. Non-de-plume???!!!
----------------http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Civilian_Massacre_%281941%29
The latter is very doubtful.
-------------------------------
What is this? An encyclopedia or a place for Bandurist to express his
deeply-held ambitions, beleifs and doubts?!!!
There is a whole paragraph devoted to  Sergei Chuguyev's book (no
mention if this is a "Non-de-plume" or not). Why? Because Bandurist
didn't see any text in Chuguev's book that talks about Nachtigall's
participation or non-participation. Also notice that there is no link
to this book. In fact, "Chuguyev" doesn't exist in nature. His name is
Chuyev. Seems like Bandurist just wants us to beleive that he read
this book and didn't see Nachtigall mentioned. How can we know?
---------------------------------------------------
The participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in the above mentioned
"The warriors from Nachtigall... took Commuminsts, Poles, Jews in
their homes and hanged them on balconies and light posts, or killed
them with hammers... While killing ciivlians, Nachtigall warriors
handed out leaflets to Ukrainian civilians calling upon them to
partake in the pogroms." [17] . He made no mention of the
participation of the Nachtigall Battalion in any of the above
mentioned atrocities.
---------------------------------------------
He made no mention of the participation of the Nachtigall
Battalion ??????????????????????
That source also ridiculously claimed that Nachtigall was led by Greek
Catholic Ukrainian priests!  It shouldn't even be in the wikipedia
article at all!
No more than de Zayas and the other Russian Sergey Chyeyev. Same
level. But if de Zayas stays, these will stay too, and 20 more will be
there too.

On the other hand, if Yad Vashem has those documents and intend to
give them to Uke historians, why don't they give them to newspapaers
as well? Can't the public judge them too?
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
----------------------------------------------
Despite the vindication by these committees and other evidence from
groups traditionally opposed to the Nachtigall Battalion accusations
of improprieties by the Battalion continue to surface.
-----------------------------------------------------
What is this? An homage to Dr. Goebbels?
Also, notice how everything anti-Nazi and anti-UPA is cast into doubts
(epitets like "Non-de-plume", "anti-Ukrainian", etc), while for every
person, who shares Bandurist's views, Bandurist gives all his titles,
accomplishments, etc, on and on, and on, and on, a sif this is an
article about these hisotrians and not about the Lviv massacre.
BM, if you want the Uke side to be properly presented, please help me
make this garbage into an objective encyclopedia article. I really
need help.
We can start by removing the ridiculous claims by the anonymous writer
"Rusin"
He is not anonymous. he is Oleg Rusin, who graduated from Kyiv
Engineeering university, and now heads the Night Watch anti-nazi
organisation. He even has a page on "schoolmates" sites. He is also
active in defending the Bronze Soldier.
Post by The Black Monk
with his fairytales about Ukrainian priests leading commandos
to massacre Jews, and references to German military personnel as
"Nazis".  We should also add the background to the massacres to the
article.
Rusin will go away only together with the parts of de Zayas's book
that have no second, independent confirmation. Both are equal in their
(un)believability.
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and is considered a number two vilain
(after Bendera) by the Jewish "plurality" (copyright: Peteris) of Odessa,
Any polls conducted about this attitude?
No. But I have a hilarious true story to tell you on this subject.
http://www.lechaim.ru/ARHIV/166/VZR/o05.htm
The legendary Jewish mayor of Odessa Gurwitz re-named one of the
streets in Odessa, previously named after the great poet and diplomat
Griboyedov, into "Shukhevich Street".  For years, Uke nationalsits
were using this as proof that even Jews and Odessa people love
Shukhevych. I did some digging and discovered Gurwitz' own explanation
"Before the 1917 Revolution, there was a street called Jewish Street.
When we came to power and returned Odessa streets their pre-Revolution
names, it turned out that the City Prosecutor's Office, The Oblast
police headquarters, and the Odessa Region Ukrainian KGB were all
"Jewish Street". So, they changed their mailing address to
'Griboyedov Street", the cross-street there. When I found out, I
renamed Griboyedov Street into "Shukhevich Street".  So, the KGB was
now on the street named after a man, who had killed myriads of
KGBists. KGB immediately changed their mailing address to "Jewish
Street". See, there are people in the World who are even worse than
Jews!"
Awesome.  But I don't know what the local Chekist's problem was in
Odesa - the KGB seems to have developed respect for Shukhevich,
especially following an influx of western Ukrainians into the KGB
starting in the 1960's (Sudoplatov and the Ukrainian-hunters of the
earlier era were marginalized eventually) that coincided with the end
of much repression.  UPA's last leader, Vasyl Kuk, was rehabilitated,
obtained a philosophy degree, and worked comfortably in some institute
on Kiev.  One retired KGB/SBU general is even the proud younger
brother of an UPA fighter.  And remember that it was the SBU that
convinced Yanukovich not to resort to bloodshed during the Orange
Revolution, with its snipers protecting the demonstrators.
But this is Odessa (!!!!!!!!) KGB! Everybody in Odessa and East
Ukraine hates people, who fought on the Nazi side, be he Shukhevich or
Vlasov. Even the Tymoshenko Party in Odessa shares these beleifs.
Shukhevich spent more time fighting against the Nazis than with them.
And Hitler's first order when he came to power, was to prohibit the
cooking of crabs alive. He was a humane vegetarian and didn't want
crabs to suffer pain. Sensitive to crustatian suffering he was.
Post by The Black Monk
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Moreover, most Jews have left Odessa - there are now 36,000 out of a
population of 1 million.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl451.htm
Odesa is now mostly populated by the same Sovok white trash as live in
Donetsk -  it's now become a cultural and intellectual wasteland like
the rest of Blue Ukraine.
It will ride again! Beleive me, Ostap the Odessa hero!
Only if the Jews return.
Many great Odessans were not Jewish. These things rub off.
Those ones left to, after the Revolution.  Now its a cesspool like
Donetsk, capable only of producing drug addicts, whores, athletes and
gangsters, like the Detroit ghetto and the rest of Yanukovich-
country.
You are mistaken. Odessa is still full of artistic people with the
greatest humour on Earth. Plus many Jews are returning to Russia from
Israel, soon they will return to Ukraine too, unless the Shukhevych
crowd prevails.

I just saw the Dnepropetrovsk KVN team give a concert in Israel. A
great show. Still, the producer/writer is Jewish and so is the top
star and a couple of other people. And the non-Jews are also great. I
hear that the old Kharkiv and Donetsk KVN teams are also still great.

Want some Youtube pointers to their classic numbers from the early
1990s? These are masterpieces.

Cities on the West side suck at KVN. Actually, Lviv had two fairly
good team - one was the soviet airforce academy of all places - and
today has a good team, but team after team from Kyiv are amazingly
inept. I guess, no more Bulgakovs left there. They all emigrated to
Paris and Belgrade and migrated to Moscow long ago... :-)
Post by The Black Monk
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has several streets named after him in Halycia and was
recently declared Hero of Ukriane by Yuschenko. So, if Odessa people
don't tell Lviv people whom to honour, why do Lviv people tell Odessa
people not to honour their founder?
As you noted Shukhevich was declared a Hero of Ukraine Ukraine by
Ukraine's head of state.  So it's no longer about "Lviv people."
Frankly, the two cannot be compared.  Shukhevich, whatever his
politics, was unambiguously pro-Ukrainian, Catherine was anti-
Ukrainian.  Whose statue should be less controversial in Ukraine?
Catherine was pro-Odessa though. Shukhevich was anti-Jewish, anti-
Polish and anti-Russian.
He was a pro-Ukrainian who believed in violent means to achieve his
ends.  There is no evidence that he nor that UPA were opposed to Jews,
Poles or Russians who didn't stand in the way of a free Ukraine
(though they were brutal towards those whom they thought did, which
pretty meant most of the Polish population).  There were Jewish UPA
members, one of whom received UPA's highest military honor.
And the anti-semitic LDPR party was founded by Jew Zhrinovsky, who
remains its Fuhrer. And the Nazi Field Marshall Milch, who received
all Nazi's highest military honors, was Jewish. And Jew Karl Marx
hated Jews. And Jew Noam Chomsky is revered by all Israel-haters.
Well, Zhirinovsky claimed to be half-"lawyer."
He never used the word "lawyer". His father was a "jeurist". This
clown has a great sense of humour.
 
Post by The Black Monk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch
In 1935, Milch's ethnicity came into question when rumours began to
circulate that his father, Anton Milch, was a Jew. This prompted an
investigation by the Gestapo that Göring quelled by producing an
affidavit signed by Milch's mother stating that Anton was not really
the father of Erhard and his siblings, and naming their true father as
Karl Brauer, her uncle. These events and his being issued a German
Blood Certificate prompted Hermann Göring to give his famous "I decide
who is a Jew!" quote.
....
Exactly. Same can for UPA.

Remember: "Jew" is not an ethnicity or religion. "Jew" is an
indictment.
Post by The Black Monk
In contrast UPA's Jewish personnel were openly Jewish.  The wife of
one of the OUN's founders was Jewish, too.  
References?
Post by The Black Monk
UPA also saved some Jewish
families from the Nazis.
Very probable.
Post by The Black Monk
 UPA's attitudes towards Jews were similar to
those of Franco or Mussolini who were not antisemites either.
Look, nationalists in Central and East Europe are much more
antisemitic than in South Europe, where they look Jewish and are
closely related to Jews by genetics. The only source of dislike of
Jews there is religious.

Even Denikin's white army had lots of pogroms. And Petlura's had even
more, as you recall. Neither Petlura nor Denikin were antisemitic and
had many of Jews in their organisations.

The probability that Nachtigall didn't have any pogroms is the same as
that of the Denikin and Petlura's units not having any pogroms. Zero.
Post by The Black Monk
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec90.html
Don't mention that Mussolini saved Jews: it is Politically
Inconvenient to do so
I took a class from a Yugoslav jewish professor, who survived the Nazi
persecution by hiding at a decent hidden camp in Italian mountains,
organised by Mussolini for jews. Many if not most of Mussolini early
funders were Jews. He himself used to be a socialist or anarchist (I
forgot).
Post by The Black Monk
Frank Johnson
 Weidenfeld and Nicolson is about to publish a big biography of
Mussolini by my friend Nicholas Farrell, which contains the following
passage: 'Just as none of the victorious powers went to war with
Germany to save the Jews neither did Mussolini go to war with them to
exterminate the Jews. Indeed, once the Holocaust was under way he and
his fascists refused to deport Jews to the Nazi death camps thus
saving thousands of Jewish lives -- far more than Oskar Schindler.'
Mussolini saved more Jews than Schindler! For once, the word
'controversial', so often used to describe any old bit of routine
leftism, is justified. That Mussolini saved Jews has long been known,
especially to non-left-wing Italians, though that includes few Italian
intellectuals. But not known widely; it is not something which Anglo-
Saxons emphasise about Mussolini. Was not Mussolini Hitler's ally? How
could he have saved Jews?
A few years ago the Guardian journalist Paul Webster discussed it in
his book on Pétain and the Jews -- Pétain's Crime -- to compare Pétain's
attitude to the Jews unfavourably with Mussolini's. But the passage in
Mr Webster's book aroused no wider interest in Britain, his subject
being Pétain rather than Mussolini.
A few academics writing in English have mentioned the matter, but in a
rather cool way. By using the startling comparison with Schindler, Mr
Farrell is the first writer in English to give it the weight that it
deserves -- to dramatise it. This could be because he is a journalist
rather than an academic. Some historians, like Tacitus, Gibbon,
Macaulay and A.J.P. Taylor have had an eye for a story; but not the
average academic historian. Unless, in many cases, it is an old left-
wing story that has been told over and over again. Potential readers
should be wary of academics reviewing Mr Farrell's book.
That a right-wing dictator could save Jews is the sort of information
that has not been allowed to enter the Anglo-Saxon consciousness
because it is politically inconvenient. Politically Convenient
historiography does not take account of shades of white and black. No
grey is allowed. Once it is agreed that someone was a right-winger,
anything good that he does is either not emphasised or it is
suppressed. It is Politically Inconvenient that Mussolini saved Jews.
During the war, many Jews from various parts of Europe saved
themselves by reaching Franco's Spain. Some made their way to
Argentina, including Perón's Argentina. The recently deceased Lord
Bauer -- Peter Bauer, the dissident free-marketeer among LSE
economists, himself born a Hungarian Jew -- delighted in telling me of
a Hungarian Jew who made his way through Franco's Spain to Cuba
(another right-wing dictatorship), later to help invent the
contraceptive pill.
...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
 One of
the most famous Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist members, the
poetess Olena Teliha, was a 100% ethnic Russian born in St.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olena_Teliha
They were fascists, but not racists (much like Mussolini's fascists,
with his Jewish Admiral)
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Whose statue should be less controversial in
Odessa? Certainly, even Tymoshenko's (!!!!!!!!!!) BYuTy Party in
Odessa  loves Catherine and (I am sure) hates Shukhevych.
A hatred based on ignorance if they believe fairytales such as
"Shukhevich the slaughterer of Jews".
But Nachtigall soldiers did do just that.
According to Soviet fairytales.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Signs in Krymea should be in both languages.
The issue is that Russian-speaking places like Krymea should be
treated as "minority regions" and allowed to speak their regional
language without restrictions. They should all know enough of the
state language - Ukrainian - to function well in the Uke society, but
they should be allowed to continue to practice their own language and
pass it on to their chidren. The alternative is - becoming another
Kosovo or Transdniestria or Abkhazia.
And all Ukrainains should be allowed to watch and listen to films in
whatever language they choose.  Even Verka-Danilka-Andryushka
Serdyuchka should be allowed to speak her/his/its invented Mongolian
language and sing: "Russia goodbye, lazha tumbay, lyozha davay!"
I agree to the above, specifically and only with respect to Crimea due
to its unique history.  The old Cossack market town of Kharkiv and the
Zaporozhian lands of modern Dnipropetrovsk were Ukrainian long before
the Russian colonists came in.
But they have a right to speak Russian to each other and their chidren
if they want. Isn't English still allowed to be spoken in the Republic
of Ireland, India, Pakistan, etc? Do they require that all films must
be dubbed into Urdu, Hindi and Gaelic? Do they forbid schoolchildren
from studying Pushkin's or Shakespeare's poetry in English? :-)

In fact, aren't most classes there conducted in English? Certainly,
99% of people in Ireland, India, and Pakistan still speak and write
much better English than, say, Bandurist from Australia or our Mamma
Hui from Indiana.
The Black Monk
2008-03-03 04:20:40 UTC
Permalink
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The author of that book, "Dr. de Zayas" is a professional Nazi-
defender! What kind of a filthy neo-Nazi revisionist would claim that
the Holocaust was done by average civilian Ukrainians and that the
Nazis were doing their best to protect Jews???!!!!! This is insane!!
How can you, a Ukrainian, tolerate this lie???!!!!
Was the "German Nazis" quote in the wikipedia article an example of
your mischief?  
Of course. De Zayas is a Nazi revisionist. he wrote about 10 books,
describing how poor Germans suffered the hands of British, Americans,
Russians and Poles duirng and after WWII. He minimises German
Holocaust crimes and blames loca Polish and Ukrainian civilians for
the Holocaust. He passingly defends Nachtigall only because he wants
to defend the German commanders to whom Shkhevich reported. he claims
that every single Jew was killed exculsively by the Ukrainian
civilians, and that Poles were not killed at all.
The point was that you misidentifed German military as "German Nazis."

As for civilians killing Jews, I see nothing incredible about civilian
relatives of NKVD victims unleashing their rage on innocent Jews.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Bandurist chose De  Zays and devoted 100 times more room to his
Holocaust denial/blaming of civilians than to all the writings of the
Holocaust Encyclopedia and the Holocaust Museum.
The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states that Nachtigall is alleged to
have taken part in the massacres. It doesn't state with certainty
that they did it, only that someone made allegations.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
The actual chapter written by de Zayas stated that it
was the German military who did their best to defend Jews from axcts
of desperate rage by Ukrainian civilians, not Nazis.  Not all German
....German military authorities had issued orders to prevent violence
against the Jewish population.
General Max Winkler: "I remember [hearing] the figure of some 4,000
corpses [murdered Ukrainians - BM]....  As a reaction to those murders
the Ukrainian population immediately started to drag the Jews out of
their homes and to abuse them in the streets....  The provisional
commander of Lvov, Colonel Fingergerst of the 49th Army Corps ...
succeeded in stopping [these excesses] by giving orders to German
troops and sending special patrols through the streets."
General Egbert Picker: "In the courtyard of the state prison I saw
many rows of corpses, laid next to each other, many of them with the
most grotesque mutilations....  I also saw in a small courtyard ...
some 15 corpses, apparently Jews who had been killed as reprisal by
the local population shortly after the Russians evacuated the
town....  Jews were being taken to the prison by local civilians
wearing armbands, and in one case they were being beaten with a
bat....  General Kübler ... told me ... that he had ordered such acts
of violence by the civilian population against Jewish persons to be
immediately stopped."
Oh yes, blame it all on Uke civilians! Those Nazi criminals, trying to
whitewash themselves,  make very believable witnesses. Much more
beleivable than the Holocaust Encyclopedia these Nazis are....
I've heard eyewitness accounts of Ukrainian civilians spitting on/
beating Jews immediately after the Soviets left.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml
Don't you think I know?
Perhaps if you had read it more carefully, you wouldn't have seen it
as surprising.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
This is what prompted the massacre of innocent Jews by Ukrainian
On 7 July 1941 Josefa Soziada, a Polish widow, testified before Judge
Möller: "On Monday, 30 June 1941 ... I went to the NKVD prison,
because I had heard that German troops were already in town.  I first
went to the courtyard, where I at once saw numerous corpses, including
those of three men whose color had turned dark, and of a woman who was
totally naked.... through a window ... I saw many corpses butchered on
a table....  through another window I saw the body of a girl hanging
from a lamp; she was about eight years old.  The corpse was naked and
had been hanged with a towel."
Also on 7 July 1941 Irene Loesch, a Ukrainian housewife, testified
that she had gone to the same prison on 28 or 29 June to look for her
mother, "who had been arrested some three months before because of her
religious convictions: as wife of a pastor of the Greek Orthodox
church, she had asked a member of her parish why he did not go to
church.  When I entered the prison I immediately saw dead people in
the first cell.  The bodies were mutilated....  I saw a woman with a
breast cut off....  Another woman had had her abdomen slit open; she
had been pregnant....  Before that I had already been to the
Samarstinov prison to search for my mother.  There I could only see
from the outside into a room that was filled up with corpses all the
way to the ceiling."
...
So, many of the relatives of these victims blamed Jews collectively
and, unable to administer justice upon the NKVD who had fled the city,
turned upon the local innocent Jews.  There is nothing surprising
about these sad events.
Except that you don't murder chidren just because some other Jew
belonged to NKVD.
I never had my child brutally murdered, and I don't think of people in
collective terms. I am not in those people's shoes. That context was
quite different.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Moreover, de Zayas claims that NKVD was "Jewish-
dominated" without a single word of evidence! Not a word! he takes it
for granted Hitler's claim that all Bolsheviks are Jewish.
It was a very common perception in Ukraine, whether true or not. It
was also commonly perceived in Ukraine and Poland that the Jews were
pro-Bolshevik. True or not, this is what most people thought at the
time.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, I cannot deny that de Zayas claims do belong to the Encyclopedia
of Holocaust denial or the KKK propaganda handbook, but not Wikipedia.
Look at that "trial at the Haague" in 1959 that cleared Oberlander.
How come de Zayas is the only person in the World who knows about it?
Wouldn't there be some mention of it anywhere else in the Internet?
Say, at some Holocaust denial sites? It seems like a major tribute to
the art of Holocaust denial and blaming locals for German Nazi crimes.
Shouldn't we ask for a second, confirming evidence?
How likely is it that the Germans really tried to stop civilians from
killing Jews? Bloody unlikely. Everybody else, including the Ukrainian
historians defending Shukhevich, say that the Nazis wanted pogroms.
Sure, but the ones stopping them weren't Nazis but the military busy
establishing control over the cities.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In
fact, the Uke KGB files specifically show that the Gemrnas ordered
Nachtigall to provoke new pogroms on 4-7 July 1941. So, the Germans
organized pogroms on July 4, but didn't want them on June 30-July
3???? How absurd and insulting to human intelligence!!!!
I think that it is quite likely that the German military trying to
establish order and control over a newly captured city would not want
armed murderous mobs running around. Don't you?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
How come nobody else remembers this Haage trial except for this neo-
Nazis?
Here are some reviews of the book you slanderously claim was written
"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It
is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the
Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new
book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer,
Journal of Soviet Military Studies
"The facts were painstakingly researched by the author. Archives were
consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an
academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of
sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof,
Netherlands International Law Review
"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army
"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of
original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and
necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological
problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after
armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts
"Dr. de Zayas first came upon the previously undiscovered 226 volumes
of WUSt documents as a Fulbright fellow on leave from his studies in
International Law at Harvard. After concluding his legal studies, de
Zayas subsequently earned a Ph.D. in history and the University of
Göttingen, where he later became an associate. The Institute supported
the research on which this study is based and arranged for the
assistance of a Dutch international law specialist, Dr. Walter
Rabus ... Mindful that the WUSt might have been manipulated by
Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry, the authors were punctilious in their
verification. They carefully examined the documents for internal
consistency and continuity and then verified the reports and
testimony, where possible, with judges, medical examiners and
witnesses still alive. In addition, they compared WUSt documents with
those of other German agencies in seven additional German archives,
and with documents in British,.Dutch, Swiss, and American archives. In
this exhaustive analysis, it becomes clear that the WUSt operated with
scrupulous objectivity and therefore that its documents constitute a
valuable new source for the study of the conduct of war. This
carefully documented administrative history together with its
excellent bibliography will therefore become an important introduction
to this extensive archive. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle is at
once an interesting history of an internal agency of the Third Reich
and an important archival and historiographical contribution to the
study of the war." German Studies Review, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Feb., 1981),
pp. 150-151.
"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times,
London
"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge
Law Journal
I find it hard to believe that the authors praising de Zayas are less
knowledgable than you about his "neo-Nazism."
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Use your common sense. Do you beleive that on June 30 - July 3 all the
pogroms were carried out by Uke civilians, while Germans were
defending Jews, but on July 4 thos esame Germans ordered Nachtigall to
organise a second wave of pogroms? (and the latter refused, because by
that time, the Nazis were also persecuting Uke nationalsits for
declaring Uke independence on June 30 (in Lviv btw) and even threw
Nachtigall out of Lviv on July 7).
Were they the same Germans?

Based exclusively on reading what you've written and on the wikipedia
page, it seems that civilian mobs outraged by the massacres of the
NKVD, committed revenge attacks upon innocent Jews but were stopped by
German soldiers trying to establish control over the city. Once
control was established, the Germans (maybe not even military at this
point, but civilians adminstrators/Gestapo) encouraged pogroms which
Nachtigall (as you admit) refused to take part in.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
That whole article needs to re-written to present a coherent
chronological and logical sequence.
How likely is it that Uke civilain nationalists killed Jews on June 30
- July 3, while Uke military nationalists and the German Nazis tried
to stop them?
It was the German military who tried to stop them.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
And what about the murder of Uke and Polish pofessors?
This is a more credible accusation about Nachtigall than the pogroms
(remember the OUN were killing specifically targetted people including
teachers in the 1930's). In the university there was a lot of anti-
Ukrainian oppression in the 1930's, and perhaps those slaughtered
professors were percieved as having been involved in that. That would
make those killings political assassinations like the ones the OUN
(including Shukhevich) were involved in, in the 1930's.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Why would Uke civilians kill liberal Uke professors from Shukhevich's
and Bendera's alma materi?!!!!
Did de Zayas accuse civilians of murdering the professors or only the
Jews?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
What nonsense. It was the German
military and Nachtigall who killed them in a pre-planned manner. The
lists had been compiled in advance, as numerous evidence shows.
Uke civilians need to be partially re-habilitated of these nonsense
accusations, and I need your help.
They were behaving no differently than any other people in similar
circumstances. No innocent Germans or Japanese were killed by
Americans, British or Soviets during World War II? Actually the
latter peoples' crimes were worse, because they weren't immediate.

A few weeks after 9-11 some outraged man in Arizona (?) shot to death
an innocent Sikh because he was wearing a turban. Are you surprised
that right after thousands of people saw their loved ones, including
childen, brutally tortured to death, mobs of them wouldn't commit
revenge attacks upon innocents?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Some Uke needs to put some sense
into this Bandurist idiot. I can make this much worse by bringing up
20 more reliable and independent sources to really damage his side.
Go for it. But avoid works by clowns such as Oleg Rusin.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Of course, he will keep on deleting them.
Wiki seems to be really full of errors and propagandist lies and is
good only for finding the real references that it lists at the end.
Especially when presenting Western propaganda.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
That source also ridiculously claimed that Nachtigall was led by Greek
Catholic Ukrainian priests!  It shouldn't even be in the wikipedia
article at all!
No more than de Zayas and the other Russian Sergey Chyeyev. Same
level. But if de Zayas stays, these will stay too, and 20 more will be
there too.
De Zayas' work comes with high praise from respected sources. Rusin's
does not. It's just some wierdo's fantasy about Greek-Catholic
priests leading a commando unit that slaughtered lots of people. The
works are not comparable.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
On the other hand, if Yad Vashem has those documents and intend to
give them to Uke historians, why don't they give them to newspapaers
as well? Can't the public judge them too?
I agree.

...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
BM, if you want the Uke side to be properly presented, please help me
make this garbage into an objective encyclopedia article. I really
need help.
We can start by removing the ridiculous claims by the anonymous writer
"Rusin"
He is not anonymous. he is Oleg Rusin, who graduated from Kyiv
Engineeering university, and now heads the Night Watch anti-nazi
organisation. He even has a page on "schoolmates" sites. He is also
active in defending the Bronze Soldier.
This is hilarious. Why is this wierdo's work on the wikipedia page at
all?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
with his fairytales about Ukrainian priests leading commandos
to massacre Jews, and references to German military personnel as
"Nazis".  We should also add the background to the massacres to the
article.
Rusin will go away only together with the parts of de Zayas's book
that have no second, independent confirmation. Both are equal in their
(un)believability.
Why?

...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
But this is Odessa (!!!!!!!!) KGB! Everybody in Odessa and East
Ukraine hates people, who fought on the Nazi side, be he Shukhevich or
Vlasov. Even the Tymoshenko Party in Odessa shares these beleifs.
Shukhevich spent more time fighting against the Nazis than with them.
And Hitler's first order when he came to power, was to prohibit the
cooking of crabs alive. He was a humane vegetarian and didn't want
crabs to suffer pain. Sensitive to crustatian suffering he was.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch
In 1935, Milch's ethnicity came into question when rumours began to
circulate that his father, Anton Milch, was a Jew. This prompted an
investigation by the Gestapo that Göring quelled by producing an
affidavit signed by Milch's mother stating that Anton was not really
the father of Erhard and his siblings, and naming their true father as
Karl Brauer, her uncle. These events and his being issued a German
Blood Certificate prompted Hermann Göring to give his famous "I decide
who is a Jew!" quote.
....
Exactly. Same can for UPA.
No. See below.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Remember: "Jew" is not an ethnicity or religion. "Jew" is an
indictment.
Post by The Black Monk
In contrast UPA's Jewish personnel were openly Jewish.  The wife of
one of the OUN's founders was Jewish, too.  
References?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists

http://www.mw.ua/1000/1030/34310/

"three of its leaders, General Mykola Kapustiansky, Rico Yary, and
Mykola Skyborski, were married to Jewish women "

The latter guy wrote the OUN-led Ukraine's constitution.

Jews ran many of UPA's underground hospitals. One of them was named
Abraham Kum. Rather hard to hide his origin, don't you think?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
UPA also saved some Jewish
families from the Nazis.
Very probable.
Post by The Black Monk
 UPA's attitudes towards Jews were similar to
those of Franco or Mussolini who were not antisemites either.
Look, nationalists in Central and East Europe are much more
antisemitic than in South Europe, where they look Jewish and are
closely related to Jews by genetics. The only source of dislike of
Jews there is religious.
Even Denikin's white army had lots of pogroms. And Petlura's had even
more, as you recall. Neither Petlura nor Denikin were antisemitic and
had many of Jews in their organisations.
One of Petliura's Jewsih friends was the Zionist leader Zhabotinsky.

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2000/370021.shtml
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The probability that Nachtigall didn't have any pogroms is the same as
that of the Denikin and Petlura's units not having any pogroms. Zero.
The difference is that Nachtigall was one tightly organized unit,
unlike Petliura's army that had 10,000s of soldiers who were in
loosely coordinated semi-independent units.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec90.html
Don't mention that Mussolini saved Jews: it is Politically
Inconvenient to do so
I took a class from a Yugoslav jewish professor, who survived the Nazi
persecution by hiding at a decent hidden camp in Italian mountains,
organised by Mussolini for jews. Many if not most of Mussolini early
funders were Jews. He himself used to be a socialist or anarchist (I
forgot).
Interesting.

...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Signs in Krymea should be in both languages.
The issue is that Russian-speaking places like Krymea should be
treated as "minority regions" and allowed to speak their regional
language without restrictions. They should all know enough of the
state language - Ukrainian - to function well in the Uke society, but
they should be allowed to continue to practice their own language and
pass it on to their chidren. The alternative is - becoming another
Kosovo or Transdniestria or Abkhazia.
And all Ukrainains should be allowed to watch and listen to films in
whatever language they choose.  Even Verka-Danilka-Andryushka
Serdyuchka should be allowed to speak her/his/its invented Mongolian
language and sing: "Russia goodbye, lazha tumbay, lyozha davay!"
I agree to the above, specifically and only with respect to Crimea due
to its unique history.  The old Cossack market town of Kharkiv and the
Zaporozhian lands of modern Dnipropetrovsk were Ukrainian long before
the Russian colonists came in.
But they have a right to speak Russian to each other and their chidren
if they want. Isn't English still allowed to be spoken in the Republic
of Ireland, India, Pakistan, etc? Do they require that all films must
be dubbed into Urdu, Hindi and Gaelic? Do they forbid schoolchildren
from studying Pushkin's or Shakespeare's poetry in English? :-)
Don't they still have a (foreign language) class in Russian in
Ukraine?

A difference is that UKrainian and Russian are similar enough that
they are easily learned by a native speaker in the other. Also unlike
gaelic in Ireland, at least half of Ukraine's people already speak
Ukrainian as a native language.

regards,

BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
 In fact, aren't most classes there conducted in English? Certainly,
99% of people in Ireland, India, and Pakistan still speak and write
much better English than, say, Bandurist from Australia or our Mamma
Hui from Indiana.
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-03 05:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The author of that book, "Dr. de Zayas" is a professional Nazi-
defender! What kind of a filthy neo-Nazi revisionist would claim that
the Holocaust was done by average civilian Ukrainians and that the
Nazis were doing their best to protect Jews???!!!!! This is insane!!
How can you, a Ukrainian, tolerate this lie???!!!!
Was the "German Nazis" quote in the wikipedia article an example of
your mischief?
Of course. De Zayas is a Nazi revisionist. he wrote about 10 books,
describing how poor Germans suffered the hands of British, Americans,
Russians and Poles duirng and after WWII. He minimises German
Holocaust crimes and blames loca Polish and Ukrainian civilians for
the Holocaust. He passingly defends Nachtigall only because he wants
to defend the German commanders to whom Shkhevich reported. he claims
that every single Jew was killed exculsively by the Ukrainian
civilians, and that Poles were not killed at all.
The point was that you misidentifed German military as "German Nazis."
No, I didn't. It is a common usage to refer to the heinous German
army of WWII as "German Nazis" to distinguish it from the German army
of WWI and all other occasions, when it behaved normally.
Post by The Black Monk
As for civilians killing Jews, I see nothing incredible about civilian
relatives of NKVD victims unleashing their rage on innocent Jews.
So, these relatives had compiled in advance the list of liberal
professors at local universities, and systematically killed these
professors, while Nachtigall was resting and the German army was
running around trying to stop the murders of 4 thousand Jews and
professors. That was between June 30 and July 3. Then on July 4 the
situation reversed itself:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://unian.net/eng/news/news-234844.html

In particular, according to O.Ishchuk, the declassified documents of
SBU indicate that on July 4-7 of 1941, representatives of Gestapo, who
arrived in Lviv, turned to Ukrainian circles with demand to carry out
a three-day massacre of Jews. "The OUN leadership, having got to know
about that, informed its members that it was a German provocation in
order to compromise Ukrainians with massacres", the document reads.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Bandurist chose De Zays and devoted 100 times more room to his
Holocaust denial/blaming of civilians than to all the writings of the
Holocaust Encyclopedia and the Holocaust Museum.
The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states that Nachtigall is alleged to
have taken part in the massacres. It doesn't state with certainty
that they did it, only that someone made allegations.
Where exactly does it say that? I didn't see the word "allegedly"
there at all. It was certain.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
The actual chapter written by de Zayas stated that it
was the German military who did their best to defend Jews from axcts
of desperate rage by Ukrainian civilians, not Nazis. Not all German
....German military authorities had issued orders to prevent violence
against the Jewish population.
General Max Winkler: "I remember [hearing] the figure of some 4,000
corpses [murdered Ukrainians - BM].... As a reaction to those murders
the Ukrainian population immediately started to drag the Jews out of
their homes and to abuse them in the streets.... The provisional
commander of Lvov, Colonel Fingergerst of the 49th Army Corps ...
succeeded in stopping [these excesses] by giving orders to German
troops and sending special patrols through the streets."
General Egbert Picker: "In the courtyard of the state prison I saw
many rows of corpses, laid next to each other, many of them with the
most grotesque mutilations.... I also saw in a small courtyard ...
some 15 corpses, apparently Jews who had been killed as reprisal by
the local population shortly after the Russians evacuated the
town.... Jews were being taken to the prison by local civilians
wearing armbands, and in one case they were being beaten with a
bat.... General Kübler ... told me ... that he had ordered such acts
of violence by the civilian population against Jewish persons to be
immediately stopped."
Oh yes, blame it all on Uke civilians! Those Nazi criminals, trying to
whitewash themselves, make very believable witnesses. Much more
beleivable than the Holocaust Encyclopedia these Nazis are....
I've heard eyewitness accounts of Ukrainian civilians spitting on/
beating Jews immediately after the Soviets left.
But there is no doubt that some civilians did participate in the
pogroms. But it is unbelievable that civilains would do that,while
their fascist brothers, dressed in uniforms, would refuse to do so.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml
Don't you think I know?
Perhaps if you had read it more carefully, you wouldn't have seen it
as surprising.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
This is what prompted the massacre of innocent Jews by Ukrainian
On 7 July 1941 Josefa Soziada, a Polish widow, testified before Judge
Möller: "On Monday, 30 June 1941 ... I went to the NKVD prison,
because I had heard that German troops were already in town. I first
went to the courtyard, where I at once saw numerous corpses, including
those of three men whose color had turned dark, and of a woman who was
totally naked.... through a window ... I saw many corpses butchered on
a table.... through another window I saw the body of a girl hanging
from a lamp; she was about eight years old. The corpse was naked and
had been hanged with a towel."
Also on 7 July 1941 Irene Loesch, a Ukrainian housewife, testified
that she had gone to the same prison on 28 or 29 June to look for her
mother, "who had been arrested some three months before because of her
religious convictions: as wife of a pastor of the Greek Orthodox
church, she had asked a member of her parish why he did not go to
church. When I entered the prison I immediately saw dead people in
the first cell. The bodies were mutilated.... I saw a woman with a
breast cut off.... Another woman had had her abdomen slit open; she
had been pregnant.... Before that I had already been to the
Samarstinov prison to search for my mother. There I could only see
from the outside into a room that was filled up with corpses all the
way to the ceiling."
...
So, many of the relatives of these victims blamed Jews collectively
and, unable to administer justice upon the NKVD who had fled the city,
turned upon the local innocent Jews. There is nothing surprising
about these sad events.
Except that you don't murder chidren just because some other Jew
belonged to NKVD.
I never had my child brutally murdered, and I don't think of people in
collective terms. I am not in those people's shoes. That context was
quite different.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Moreover, de Zayas claims that NKVD was "Jewish-
dominated" without a single word of evidence! Not a word! he takes it
for granted Hitler's claim that all Bolsheviks are Jewish.
It was a very common perception in Ukraine, whether true or not.
In Germany too. That's why Ukrainians killed the Jews together with
Germans, not alone. Everywhere German army went, the first thing it
did was kill some Jews and Communists. I find it hard to believe that
Lviv would conveniently become the exception.
Post by The Black Monk
It
was also commonly perceived in Ukraine and Poland that the Jews were
pro-Bolshevik. True or not, this is what most people thought at the
time.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, I cannot deny that de Zayas claims do belong to the Encyclopedia
of Holocaust denial or the KKK propaganda handbook, but not Wikipedia.
Look at that "trial at the Haague" in 1959 that cleared Oberlander.
How come de Zayas is the only person in the World who knows about it?
Wouldn't there be some mention of it anywhere else in the Internet?
Say, at some Holocaust denial sites? It seems like a major tribute to
the art of Holocaust denial and blaming locals for German Nazi crimes.
Shouldn't we ask for a second, confirming evidence?
How likely is it that the Germans really tried to stop civilians from
killing Jews? Bloody unlikely. Everybody else, including the Ukrainian
historians defending Shukhevich, say that the Nazis wanted pogroms.
Sure, but the ones stopping them weren't Nazis but the military busy
establishing control over the cities.
Why only in Lviv? Why not in other towns, villages and cities?
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In
fact, the Uke KGB files specifically show that the Gemrnas ordered
Nachtigall to provoke new pogroms on 4-7 July 1941. So, the Germans
organized pogroms on July 4, but didn't want them on June 30-July
3???? How absurd and insulting to human intelligence!!!!
I think that it is quite likely that the German military trying to
establish order and control over a newly captured city would not want
armed murderous mobs running around. Don't you?
It did so in all other cities.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
How come nobody else remembers this Haage trial except for this neo-
Nazis?
Here are some reviews of the book you slanderously claim was written
"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It
is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the
Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new
book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer,
Journal of Soviet Military Studies
"The facts were painstakingly researched by the author. Archives were
consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an
academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of
sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof,
Netherlands International Law Review
"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army
"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of
original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and
necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological
problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after
armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts
"Dr. de Zayas first came upon the previously undiscovered 226 volumes
of WUSt documents as a Fulbright fellow on leave from his studies in
International Law at Harvard. After concluding his legal studies, de
Zayas subsequently earned a Ph.D. in history and the University of
Göttingen, where he later became an associate. The Institute supported
the research on which this study is based and arranged for the
assistance of a Dutch international law specialist, Dr. Walter
Rabus ... Mindful that the WUSt might have been manipulated by
Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry, the authors were punctilious in their
verification. They carefully examined the documents for internal
consistency and continuity and then verified the reports and
testimony, where possible, with judges, medical examiners and
witnesses still alive. In addition, they compared WUSt documents with
those of other German agencies in seven additional German archives,
and with documents in British,.Dutch, Swiss, and American archives. In
this exhaustive analysis, it becomes clear that the WUSt operated with
scrupulous objectivity and therefore that its documents constitute a
valuable new source for the study of the conduct of war. This
carefully documented administrative history together with its
excellent bibliography will therefore become an important introduction
to this extensive archive. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle is at
once an interesting history of an internal agency of the Third Reich
and an important archival and historiographical contribution to the
study of the war." German Studies Review, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Feb., 1981),
pp. 150-151.
"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times,
London
"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge
Law Journal
I find it hard to believe that the authors praising de Zayas are less
knowledgable than you about his "neo-Nazism."
De Zayas book has only one chapter on Lviv. The people, who praised
his book, may have praised other parts.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Use your common sense. Do you beleive that on June 30 - July 3 all the
pogroms were carried out by Uke civilians, while Germans were
defending Jews, but on July 4 thos esame Germans ordered Nachtigall to
organise a second wave of pogroms? (and the latter refused, because by
that time, the Nazis were also persecuting Uke nationalsits for
declaring Uke independence on June 30 (in Lviv btw) and even threw
Nachtigall out of Lviv on July 7).
Were they the same Germans?
No. Gestapo.
Post by The Black Monk
Based exclusively on reading what you've written and on the wikipedia
page, it seems that civilian mobs outraged by the massacres of the
NKVD, committed revenge attacks upon innocent Jews but were stopped by
German soldiers trying to establish control over the city. Once
control was established, the Germans (maybe not even military at this
point, but civilians adminstrators/Gestapo) encouraged pogroms which
Nachtigall (as you admit) refused to take part in.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
That whole article needs to re-written to present a coherent
chronological and logical sequence.
How likely is it that Uke civilain nationalists killed Jews on June 30
- July 3, while Uke military nationalists and the German Nazis tried
to stop them?
It was the German military who tried to stop them.
COL.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
And what about the murder of Uke and Polish pofessors?
This is a more credible accusation about Nachtigall than the pogroms
(remember the OUN were killing specifically targetted people including
teachers in the 1930's). In the university there was a lot of anti-
Ukrainian oppression in the 1930's, and perhaps those slaughtered
professors were percieved as having been involved in that.
No. The professors were percieved as being liberals. Some socialist
Uke professors were killed too.
Post by The Black Monk
That would
make those killings political assassinations like the ones the OUN
(including Shukhevich) were involved in, in the 1930's.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Why would Uke civilians kill liberal Uke professors from Shukhevich's
and Bendera's alma materi?!!!!
Did de Zayas accuse civilians of murdering the professors or only the
Jews?
Ask him. This man is called a "German revisionist" by the Polish
experts.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
What nonsense. It was the German
military and Nachtigall who killed them in a pre-planned manner. The
lists had been compiled in advance, as numerous evidence shows.
Uke civilians need to be partially re-habilitated of these nonsense
accusations, and I need your help.
They were behaving no differently than any other people in similar
circumstances. No innocent Germans or Japanese were killed by
Americans, British or Soviets during World War II?
Yes. By soldiers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Exactly my point.
Post by The Black Monk
Actually the
latter peoples' crimes were worse, because they weren't immediate.
A few weeks after 9-11 some outraged man in Arizona (?) shot to death
an innocent Sikh because he was wearing a turban. Are you surprised
that right after thousands of people saw their loved ones, including
childen, brutally tortured to death, mobs of them wouldn't commit
revenge attacks upon innocents?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Some Uke needs to put some sense
into this Bandurist idiot. I can make this much worse by bringing up
20 more reliable and independent sources to really damage his side.
Go for it. But avoid works by clowns such as Oleg Rusin.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Of course, he will keep on deleting them.
Wiki seems to be really full of errors and propagandist lies and is
good only for finding the real references that it lists at the end.
Especially when presenting Western propaganda.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
That source also ridiculously claimed that Nachtigall was led by Greek
Catholic Ukrainian priests! It shouldn't even be in the wikipedia
article at all!
No more than de Zayas and the other Russian Sergey Chyeyev. Same
level. But if de Zayas stays, these will stay too, and 20 more will be
there too.
De Zayas' work comes with high praise from respected sources. Rusin's
does not. It's just some wierdo's fantasy about Greek-Catholic
priests leading a commando unit that slaughtered lots of people. The
works are not comparable.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
On the other hand, if Yad Vashem has those documents and intend to
give them to Uke historians, why don't they give them to newspapaers
as well? Can't the public judge them too?
I agree.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
BM, if you want the Uke side to be properly presented, please help me
make this garbage into an objective encyclopedia article. I really
need help.
We can start by removing the ridiculous claims by the anonymous writer
"Rusin"
He is not anonymous. he is Oleg Rusin, who graduated from Kyiv
Engineeering university, and now heads the Night Watch anti-nazi
organisation. He even has a page on "schoolmates" sites. He is also
active in defending the Bronze Soldier.
This is hilarious. Why is this wierdo's work on the wikipedia page at
all?
To me, he is no different from de Zayas, who has devoted his entire
scientific life to portraying Germans as victims of the Allies.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
with his fairytales about Ukrainian priests leading commandos
to massacre Jews, and references to German military personnel as
"Nazis". We should also add the background to the massacres to the
article.
Rusin will go away only together with the parts of de Zayas's book
that have no second, independent confirmation. Both are equal in their
(un)believability.
Why?
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
But this is Odessa (!!!!!!!!) KGB! Everybody in Odessa and East
Ukraine hates people, who fought on the Nazi side, be he Shukhevich or
Vlasov. Even the Tymoshenko Party in Odessa shares these beleifs.
Shukhevich spent more time fighting against the Nazis than with them.
And Hitler's first order when he came to power, was to prohibit the
cooking of crabs alive. He was a humane vegetarian and didn't want
crabs to suffer pain. Sensitive to crustatian suffering he was.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch
In 1935, Milch's ethnicity came into question when rumours began to
circulate that his father, Anton Milch, was a Jew. This prompted an
investigation by the Gestapo that Göring quelled by producing an
affidavit signed by Milch's mother stating that Anton was not really
the father of Erhard and his siblings, and naming their true father as
Karl Brauer, her uncle. These events and his being issued a German
Blood Certificate prompted Hermann Göring to give his famous "I decide
who is a Jew!" quote.
....
Exactly. Same can for UPA.
No. See below.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Remember: "Jew" is not an ethnicity or religion. "Jew" is an
indictment.
Post by The Black Monk
In contrast UPA's Jewish personnel were openly Jewish. The wife of
one of the OUN's founders was Jewish, too.
References?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
http://www.mw.ua/1000/1030/34310/
"three of its leaders, General Mykola Kapustiansky, Rico Yary, and
Mykola Skyborski, were married to Jewish women "
No, I meant the OUN memebrs who were openly Jewish themselves.
Post by The Black Monk
The latter guy wrote the OUN-led Ukraine's constitution.
Jews ran many of UPA's underground hospitals. One of them was named
Abraham Kum. Rather hard to hide his origin, don't you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bobanni/upa

Dr. Abraham Kum, the director of an underground hospital in the
Carpathians. The latter individual was the recipient of UPA's Golden
Cross of Merit.

He was not a UPA leader. he was a doctor who saved a lot of Uke lives.
Unlike General Milch, who commanded Nazi forces.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
UPA also saved some Jewish
families from the Nazis.
Very probable.
Post by The Black Monk
UPA's attitudes towards Jews were similar to
those of Franco or Mussolini who were not antisemites either.
Look, nationalists in Central and East Europe are much more
antisemitic than in South Europe, where they look Jewish and are
closely related to Jews by genetics. The only source of dislike of
Jews there is religious.
Even Denikin's white army had lots of pogroms. And Petlura's had even
more, as you recall. Neither Petlura nor Denikin were antisemitic and
had many Jews in their organisations.
One of Petliura's Jewsih friends was the Zionist leader Zhabotinsky.
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2000/370021.shtml
Exactly. And still, Petlura's army is responsible for thousands of
Jewish pogroms.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The probability that Nachtigall didn't have any pogroms is the same as
that of the Denikin and Petlura's units not having any pogroms. Zero.
The difference is that Nachtigall was one tightly organized unit,
unlike Petliura's army that had 10,000s of soldiers who were in
loosely coordinated semi-independent units.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec90.html
Don't mention that Mussolini saved Jews: it is Politically
Inconvenient to do so
I took a class from a Yugoslav jewish professor, who survived the Nazi
persecution by hiding at a decent hidden camp in Italian mountains,
organised by Mussolini for jews. Many if not most of Mussolini early
funders were Jews. He himself used to be a socialist or anarchist (I
forgot).
Interesting.
...cut...
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Signs in Krymea should be in both languages.
The issue is that Russian-speaking places like Krymea should be
treated as "minority regions" and allowed to speak their regional
language without restrictions. They should all know enough of the
state language - Ukrainian - to function well in the Uke society, but
they should be allowed to continue to practice their own language and
pass it on to their chidren. The alternative is - becoming another
Kosovo or Transdniestria or Abkhazia.
And all Ukrainains should be allowed to watch and listen to films in
whatever language they choose. Even Verka-Danilka-Andryushka
Serdyuchka should be allowed to speak her/his/its invented Mongolian
language and sing: "Russia goodbye, lazha tumbay, lyozha davay!"
I agree to the above, specifically and only with respect to Crimea due
to its unique history. The old Cossack market town of Kharkiv and the
Zaporozhian lands of modern Dnipropetrovsk were Ukrainian long before
the Russian colonists came in.
But they have a right to speak Russian to each other and their chidren
if they want. Isn't English still allowed to be spoken in the Republic
of Ireland, India, Pakistan, etc? Do they require that all films must
be dubbed into Urdu, Hindi and Gaelic? Do they forbid schoolchildren
from studying Pushkin's or Shakespeare's poetry in English? :-)
Don't they still have a (foreign language) class in Russian in
Ukraine?
The effort is to make the Russian children in East Ukraine to forget
Russian as their first language.
Post by The Black Monk
A difference is that UKrainian and Russian are similar enough that
they are easily learned by a native speaker in the other.
Yes. What's at issue is not the language but the political view. NATO
vs. anti-NATO. If Uke children learn Russian, they will be able to
read and watch the information about US and NATO atrocities. If they
know only Ukrainian, they will be brainwashed into believing that it
was Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Greeks, Turks, Jews and Gypsies
who "ethnically cleansed" Albanians out of Kosovo and Croats out of
Croatia, not vise versa.
Post by The Black Monk
Also unlike
gaelic in Ireland, at least half of Ukraine's people already speak
Ukrainian as a native language.
Yes, and most people in Pakistan speak Urdu. But the official language
is English.
Post by The Black Monk
regards,
BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In fact, aren't most classes there conducted in English? Certainly,
99% of people in Ireland, India, and Pakistan still speak and write
much better English than, say, Bandurist from Australia or our Mamma
Hui from Indiana.
The Black Monk
2008-03-04 05:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Was the "German Nazis" quote in the wikipedia article an example of
your mischief?  
Of course. De Zayas is a Nazi revisionist. he wrote about 10 books,
describing how poor Germans suffered the hands of British, Americans,
Russians and Poles duirng and after WWII. He minimises German
Holocaust crimes and blames loca Polish and Ukrainian civilians for
the Holocaust. He passingly defends Nachtigall only because he wants
to defend the German commanders to whom Shkhevich reported. he claims
that every single Jew was killed exculsively by the Ukrainian
civilians, and that Poles were not killed at all.
The point was that you misidentifed German military as "German Nazis."
No, I didn't. It is a common usage to refer to the heinous  German
army of WWII as "German Nazis" to distinguish it from the German army
of WWI and all other occasions, when it behaved normally.
So would you identify all Soviet army personnel as "Russian or
Ukrainian Bolsheviks"?
Post by The Black Monk
As for civilians killing Jews, I see nothing incredible about civilian
relatives of NKVD victims unleashing their rage on innocent Jews.
So, these relatives had compiled in advance the list of liberal
professors at local universities,
I was speaking specifically about the murder of random Jews, not the
targetted killing of the 45 or so university professors.

Incidentally, the wikipedia pages of most but not all of of the
murdered states that they were killed by Germans. And those pages
were written by Poles.
and systematically killed these
professors, while Nachtigall was resting and the German army was
running around trying to stop the murders of 4 thousand Jews and
professors. That was between June 30 and July 3. Then on July 4 the
------------------------------------------------------------------------http://unian.net/eng/news/news-234844.html
In particular, according to O.Ishchuk, the declassified documents of
SBU indicate that on July 4-7 of 1941, representatives of Gestapo, who
arrived in Lviv, turned to Ukrainian circles with demand to carry out
a three-day massacre of Jews. "The OUN leadership, having got to know
about that, informed its members that it was a German provocation in
order to compromise Ukrainians with massacres", the document reads.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you are suggesting that they killed Jews on June 30th but didn't on
July 4th? They agreed to be compromised 4 days earlier, according to
you? That makes no sense. It seems clear from the above that no
order was given until July 4th.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Bandurist chose De  Zays and devoted 100 times more room to his
Holocaust denial/blaming of civilians than to all the writings of the
Holocaust Encyclopedia and the Holocaust Museum.
The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states that Nachtigall is alleged to
have taken part in the massacres.  It doesn't state with certainty
that they did it, only that someone made allegations.
Where exactly does it say that? I didn't see the word "allegedly"
there at all. It was certain.
Sorry, I was going by the wiki version.

...cut...
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Oh yes, blame it all on Uke civilians! Those Nazi criminals, trying to
whitewash themselves,  make very believable witnesses. Much more
beleivable than the Holocaust Encyclopedia these Nazis are....
I've heard eyewitness accounts of Ukrainian civilians spitting on/
beating Jews immediately after the Soviets left.
But there is no doubt that some civilians did participate in the
pogroms. But it is unbelievable that civilains would do that,while
their fascist brothers, dressed in uniforms, would refuse to do so.
The difference was that the others were in a disciplined military
unit, which as has been proven was avoiding provocations on July 4th.

...cut...
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Moreover, de Zayas claims that NKVD was "Jewish-
dominated" without a single word of evidence! Not a word! he takes it
for granted Hitler's claim that all Bolsheviks are Jewish.
It was a very common perception in Ukraine, whether true or not.
In Germany too. That's why Ukrainians killed the Jews together with
Germans, not alone.  Everywhere German army went, the first thing it
did was kill some Jews and Communists. I find it hard to believe that
Lviv would conveniently become the exception.
German army killed Jewish civilians first thing it did? Where?
Post by The Black Monk
It
was also commonly perceived in Ukraine and Poland that the Jews were
pro-Bolshevik.  True or not, this is what most people thought at the
time.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, I cannot deny that de Zayas claims do belong to the Encyclopedia
of Holocaust denial or the KKK propaganda handbook, but not Wikipedia.
Look at that "trial at the Haague" in 1959 that cleared Oberlander.
How come de Zayas is the only person in the World who knows about it?
Wouldn't there be some mention of it anywhere else in the Internet?
Say, at some Holocaust denial sites? It seems like a major tribute to
the art of Holocaust denial and blaming locals for German Nazi crimes.
Shouldn't we ask for a second, confirming evidence?
How likely is it that the Germans really tried to stop civilians from
killing Jews? Bloody unlikely. Everybody else, including the Ukrainian
historians defending Shukhevich, say that the Nazis wanted pogroms.
Sure, but the ones stopping them weren't Nazis but the military busy
establishing control over the cities.
Why only in Lviv? Why not in other towns, villages and cities?
In which towns did the Geman wehrmacht start killing Jews right when
they entered it. I'm sure there might have been a few but prove it
was a pattern please.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
In
fact, the Uke KGB files specifically show that the Gemrnas ordered
Nachtigall to provoke new pogroms on 4-7 July 1941. So, the Germans
organized pogroms on July 4, but didn't want them on June 30-July
3???? How absurd and insulting to human intelligence!!!!
I think that it is quite likely that the German military trying to
establish order and control over a newly captured city would not want
armed murderous mobs running around.  Don't you?
It did so in all other cities.
Which ones? I'm talking about immediately, not 4-5 days later.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
How come nobody else remembers this Haage trial except for this neo-
Nazis?
Here are some reviews of the book you slanderously claim was written
"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It
is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the
Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new
book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer,
Journal of Soviet Military Studies
"The facts were painstakingly researched by the author. Archives were
consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an
academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of
sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof,
Netherlands International Law Review
"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army
"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of
original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and
necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological
problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after
armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts
"Dr. de Zayas first came upon the previously undiscovered 226 volumes
of WUSt documents as a Fulbright fellow on leave from his studies in
International Law at Harvard. After concluding his legal studies, de
Zayas subsequently earned a Ph.D. in history and the University of
Göttingen, where he later became an associate. The Institute supported
the research on which this study is based and arranged for the
assistance of a Dutch international law specialist, Dr. Walter
Rabus ... Mindful that the WUSt might have been manipulated by
Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry, the authors were punctilious in their
verification. They carefully examined the documents for internal
consistency and continuity and then verified the reports and
testimony, where possible, with judges, medical examiners and
witnesses still alive. In addition, they compared WUSt documents with
those of other German agencies in seven additional German archives,
and with documents in British,.Dutch, Swiss, and American archives. In
this exhaustive analysis, it becomes clear that the WUSt operated with
scrupulous objectivity and therefore that its documents constitute a
valuable new source for the study of the conduct of war. This
carefully documented administrative history together with its
excellent bibliography will therefore become an important introduction
to this extensive archive. The Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle is at
once an interesting history of an internal agency of the Third Reich
and an important archival and historiographical contribution to the
study of the war." German Studies Review, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Feb., 1981),
pp. 150-151.
"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times,
London
"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge
Law Journal
I find it hard to believe that the authors praising de Zayas are less
knowledgable than you about his "neo-Nazism."
De Zayas book has only one chapter on Lviv. The people, who praised
his book, may have praised other parts.
That's just your assumption.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Use your common sense. Do you beleive that on June 30 - July 3 all the
pogroms were carried out by Uke civilians, while Germans were
defending Jews, but on July 4 thos esame Germans ordered Nachtigall to
organise a second wave of pogroms? (and the latter refused, because by
that time, the Nazis were also persecuting Uke nationalsits for
declaring Uke independence on June 30 (in Lviv btw) and even threw
Nachtigall out of Lviv on July 7).
Were they the same Germans?
No. Gestapo.
Exactly.
Post by The Black Monk
Based exclusively on reading what you've written and on the wikipedia
page, it seems that civilian mobs outraged by the massacres of the
NKVD, committed revenge attacks upon innocent Jews but were stopped by
German soldiers trying to establish control over the city.  Once
control was established, the Germans (maybe not even military at this
point, but civilians adminstrators/Gestapo) encouraged pogroms which
Nachtigall (as you admit) refused to take part in.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
That whole article needs to re-written to present a coherent
chronological and logical sequence.
How likely is it that Uke civilain nationalists killed Jews on June 30
- July 3, while Uke military nationalists and the German Nazis tried
to stop them?
It was the German military who tried to stop them.
COL.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
And what about the murder of Uke and Polish pofessors?
This is a more credible accusation about Nachtigall than the pogroms
(remember the OUN were killing specifically targetted people including
teachers in the 1930's).  In the university there was a lot of anti-
Ukrainian oppression in the 1930's, and perhaps those slaughtered
professors were percieved as having been involved in that.
No. The professors were percieved as being liberals. Some socialist
Uke professors were killed too.
According to wikipedia,

"During the night of July 3 and July 4 several dozens of professors
and their families were arrested. The lists were prepared by their
Ukrainian students." I don't know about the victims, but i wonder if
they were involved in the well-known marginalization/oppression of
Ukrainian and Jewish students in the Polish education system.

One, though, was accused of helping the Soviets:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Boy-%C5%BBele%C5%84ski

Bartel was killed by Himmler's orders on July 26th, long after the
massacres:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Bartel
Post by The Black Monk
 That would
make those killings political assassinations like the ones the OUN
(including Shukhevich) were involved in, in the 1930's.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Why would Uke civilians kill liberal Uke professors from Shukhevich's
and Bendera's alma materi?!!!!
Did de Zayas accuse civilians of murdering the professors or only the
Jews?
Ask him. This man is called a "German revisionist" by the Polish
experts.
Which ones?
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
What nonsense. It was the German
military and Nachtigall who killed them in a pre-planned manner. The
lists had been compiled in advance, as numerous evidence shows.
Uke civilians need to be partially re-habilitated of these nonsense
accusations, and I need your help.
They were behaving no differently than any other people in similar
circumstances.  No innocent Germans or Japanese were killed by
Americans, British or Soviets during World War II?
Yes. By soldiers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Exactly my point.
As they are capturing the city?

...cut...
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
We can start by removing the ridiculous claims by the anonymous writer
"Rusin"
He is not anonymous. he is Oleg Rusin, who graduated from Kyiv
Engineeering university, and now heads the Night Watch anti-nazi
organisation. He even has a page on "schoolmates" sites. He is also
active in defending the Bronze Soldier.
This is hilarious.  Why is this wierdo's work on the wikipedia page at
all?
To me, he is no different from de Zayas, who has devoted his entire
scientific life to portraying Germans as victims of the Allies.
De Zayas studied at Harvard. His work was praised by the Journal of
Soviet Military Studies, Sunday Times, Cambridge Law Review, etc.
Oleg Rusin is an engineer with a web page with nonsense on it. I
would compare it to UNA-UNSO's writings, not De Zayas'.
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
In contrast UPA's Jewish personnel were openly Jewish.  The wife of
one of the OUN's founders was Jewish, too.  
References?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
http://www.mw.ua/1000/1030/34310/
"three of its leaders, General Mykola Kapustiansky, Rico Yary, and
Mykola Skyborski, were married to Jewish women "
No, I meant the OUN memebrs who were openly Jewish themselves.
Don't know of any.
Post by The Black Monk
The latter guy wrote the OUN-led Ukraine's constitution.
Jews ran many of UPA's underground hospitals.  One of them was named
Abraham Kum.  Rather hard to hide his origin, don't you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bobanni/upa
Dr. Abraham Kum, the director of an underground hospital in the
Carpathians. The latter individual was the recipient of UPA's Golden
Cross of Merit.
He was not a UPA leader. he was a doctor who saved a lot of Uke lives.
Unlike General Milch, who commanded Nazi forces.
He was director of the hospital. And unlike Milch who was thanks to
Goering was legally classified as non-Jewish Kum was openly Jewish.

Look, despite Soviet propaganda of western Ukrainians as anti-semites,
there were many examples of cooperation. Such as:

http://www.infoukes.com/newpathway/Page833.htm

Jewish Battalion of the Ukrainian Galician Army (Zhydivskyi kurin
UHA). The battalion was formed from Jewish militia units in the city
of Ternopil during June 1919 as part of the Ukrainian Galician Army
(UHA). It was commanded by Lieutenant S. Leimberg and initially was
under direct operational control of 1 Corps Headquarters. The
battalion reached a total strength of 1,200 soldiers, who were
organized into four infantry companies, one machine-gun company, one
engineer company, and other units. After basic training in Ostapie,
Skalat county, the battalion was sent to the Polish front and was in
combat from 14 July 1919. During the withdrawal of the UHA to the
east, the battalion initially had responsibility for rearguard
security and later participated in combat against Bolshevik forces in
Proskuriv (Khmelnytskyi) and captured the town of Mykhalpil
(Mykhailivka). In Vinnytsia the battalion's mission was to secure the
city and the headquarters of 1 Corps. In the march on Kiev in late
August 1919 the battalion was attached to the 6th Brigade with the
mission of gaining and securing the rail station at Sviatoshyne. In
September 1919 the battalion was temporarily stationed in Berdychiv,
where its actions in securing the town gained wide support among the
local people. After transfer to Vinnytsia in late autumn 1919, the
battalion was so decimated by the typhus epidemic that it was
disbanded and its surviving soldiers were reassigned to other UHA
units.

...cut...
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Even Denikin's white army had lots of pogroms. And Petlura's had even
more, as you recall. Neither Petlura nor Denikin were antisemitic and
had many Jews in their organisations.
One of Petliura's Jewsih friends was the Zionist leader Zhabotinsky.
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2000/370021.shtml
Exactly. And still, Petlura's army is responsible for thousands of
Jewish pogroms.
Those were units out of Petliura's control. In contrast Nachtigall
were quite strictly under OUN control. It's proven that they refused
to take part on July 4th, so we know they were capable of following
(OUN's, not German) orders.

...cut...
Post by The Black Monk
Post by o***@hotmail.com
But they have a right to speak Russian to each other and their chidren
if they want. Isn't English still allowed to be spoken in the Republic
of Ireland, India, Pakistan, etc? Do they require that all films must
be dubbed into Urdu, Hindi and Gaelic? Do they forbid schoolchildren
from studying Pushkin's or Shakespeare's poetry in English? :-)
Don't they still have a (foreign language) class in Russian in
Ukraine?
The effort is to make the Russian children in East Ukraine to forget
Russian as their first language.
Then why have it as the second language - doing this will insure
fluency because of the similarity.
Post by The Black Monk
A difference is that UKrainian and Russian are similar enough that
they are easily learned by a native speaker in the other.  
Yes. What's at issue is not the language but the political view. NATO
vs. anti-NATO. If Uke children learn Russian, they will be able to
read and watch the information about US and NATO atrocities. If they
know only Ukrainian, they will be brainwashed into believing that it
was Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Greeks, Turks, Jews and Gypsies
who "ethnically cleansed" Albanians out of Kosovo and Croats out of
Croatia, not vise versa.
Western Ukrainians were very much anti-NATO following the attack on
Serbia, judging by all the anti-NATO graffitti I saw in Lviv not long
afterwards.

regards,

BM
Post by The Black Monk
Also unlike
gaelic in Ireland, at least half of Ukraine's people already speak
Ukrainian as a native language.
Yes, and most people in Pakistan speak Urdu. But the official language
is English.
Post by The Black Monk
regards,
BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
 In fact, aren't most classes there conducted in English? Certainly,
99% of people in Ireland, India, and Pakistan still speak and write
much better English than, say, Bandurist from Australia or our Mamma
Hui from Indiana.
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-03 07:31:46 UTC
Permalink
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
the 1941 Lviv / Lwow Massacre in Die Zeit in 2001:

http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml

How is your German, BM? Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-03 15:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM? Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always as MTRP.
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?

By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?

Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.

P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Rostyk
v***@yahoo.com
2008-03-03 17:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM?  Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always as MTRP.
I am almost done myself.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?
Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
authoritative newspaper in Germany if not the world:

"In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered
inmates.
The Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to
the rapid
advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation, and a
rebellion by
Ukrainian nationalists."
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-04 02:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM? Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always ask MTRP.
I am almost done myself.
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?
Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
"In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered inmates. The
Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to the rapid
advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation,
and a rebellion by Ukrainian nationalists."
Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
Yes, but does the article mention who were the collaborators that helped
the NKVD compile the lists of the Ukrainian intelligentcia whom they had
in those prisons?
And does it mention similar prisons in the surrounding towns?

I will be interested in seeing your translation.
v***@yahoo.com
2008-03-04 02:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM?  Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always ask MTRP.
I am almost done myself.
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?
Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
"In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered inmates. The
Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to the rapid
advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation,
and a rebellion by Ukrainian nationalists."
Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
Yes, but does the article mention who were the collaborators
The article mentions very few individual names. I don't think the
names of collaborators are known.

Why don't you read it for yourself? The link is above.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
that helped
the NKVD compile the lists of the Ukrainian intelligentcia whom they had
in those prisons?
I am not sure what you mean by "lists" and "intelligentcia" here. NKVD
went after all classes, primarily the bourgeous. There were no lists
afaik. It was Bandera's UPA that had compiled lists of Jewish, Polish
and Uke liberal "intelligentcia" in advance.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
And does it mention similar prisons in the surrounding towns?
No, it deals exclusively with Lemberg, June 22 - July 4 1941.

Read it.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-04 05:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM? Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always ask MTRP.
I am almost done myself.
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?
Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
"In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered inmates. The
Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to the rapid
advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation,
and a rebellion by Ukrainian nationalists."
Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
Yes, but does the article mention who were the collaborators
The article mentions very few individual names. I don't think the
names of collaborators are known.
No not individual names. But does the article state which ethnic or
cultural group the collaborators of the NKVD belonged to?

My parents also recounted how in the 1920s and 1930s their remembrance
marches to the cemetary of the Ukrainian Sichovi Striltsi were harrased
by Jewish youths. Could there be a connection with the class of NKVD
collaborators?
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Why don't you read it for yourself? The link is above.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
that helped
the NKVD compile the lists of the Ukrainian intelligentcia whom they had
in those prisons?
I am not sure what you mean by "lists" and "intelligentcia" here. NKVD
went after all classes, primarily the bourgeous. There were no lists
afaik. It was Bandera's UPA that had compiled lists of Jewish, Polish
^^^^^ opposite to afaik.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
and Uke liberal "intelligentcia" in advance.
That is patently impossible, since the UPA was not formed until 1942-43.
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
And does it mention similar prisons in the surrounding towns?
No, it deals exclusively with Lemberg, June 22 - July 4 1941.
Read it.
Sure. I hope to read your translation. :)
--
Rostyk
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-04 05:27:42 UTC
Permalink
 >>>>> I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
 >>>>>http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
 >>>>> How is your German, BM?  Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
 >>>>> understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
 >>>> Well you could always ask MTRP.
 >>> I am almost done myself.
 >>>> Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
 >>>> Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
 >>>> you out.
 >>>> It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
 >>>> By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
 >>>> of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
 >>>> armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
 >>>> collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
 >>>> those to be liquidated?
 >>> Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
 >>> published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
 >>> "In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered inmates. The
 >>> Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to the rapid
 >>> advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation,
 >>> and a rebellion by Ukrainian nationalists."
 >>>> Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
 >>>> accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
 >>> Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
 >>>> P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
 >>>> in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
 >>>> searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
 >>>> among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
 >>>> --
 >>> Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
 >>> Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
 >> Yes, but does the article mention who were the collaborators
 >>
 >
 > The article mentions very few individual names. I don't think the
 > names of collaborators are known.
 >
No not individual names. But does the article state which ethnic or
cultural group the collaborators of the NKVD belonged to?
Can't you read?

OK. Here is the article, half-translated by me. Be the judge:

----------------------------------------------

"When the German troops occupied Lemberg, there were about 160,000
Poles, 150,000 Jews and 50,000 Ukrainians.

In the three prisons of Lemberg Germans discovered murdered inmates.
The Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4000 prisoners due to
the rapid
advance of the German troops, missing means of transport, and a
rebellion of
Ukrainian nationalists.

A few hours later, Lemberg became the scene of wild excesses. The war
diary 49.
An officer of the Stadtkommandantur writes to his wife about the first
day of occupation: "Jews are
killed - easy Pogromstimmung [, ] so under the Ukrainians." But this
was not a "spontaneous"
act of Ukrainian "people's anger".
At noon, posters and handbills of the German Besatzer had appeared,
telling the population
There it stood to read who was responsible for the murders: the
"Jewish Bolsheviks".
Nearly identical posters of a "Ukrainian
National Committee" demanded the death of the Jews and communists and
praised Adolf Hitler and Stephan Bander.

Bandera was the leader of one of the two rivaling wings of the
Ukrainian
nationalist organization OUN, a sharply anti-Semitic
group OUN(B) that enjoyed the special protection of the German
military. The Germans
had set up the Ukrainer battalion "Nachtigall" in German uniforms and
under the instruction of German armed forces
officers.

Bandera prepared his people in the city for
the day of occupation: eye-witnesses report that in the deserted roads
"suddenly, as" people with badges and blue-yellow volumes appeared
to provide so-called order". They occupied, with
approval of the Germans, the police posts and took over their
functions. As
the first official act "Nachtigall" organized new militia to rush on
the Lemberger
Jews. Jews were dragged from their houses or taken on the street to
the three prisons.
On instruction of the commander of city, they were ordered to take
corpses out of the cells and mass
graves and lay down for identification in the yard of the prisons.

Already during collecting and way driving it comes to bad abusing. The
attacks
increase to the terror before the prisons: And stands spalier armed
civilians
and flogs with clubs and gewehrkolben on the Jews; Hundreds of humans
are
killed. With these excesses German soldiers kept out but did not
prevent the
public rush: an instruction forbids the use of force of arms against
Ukrainian civilians and militia. Prisons there on the
inside, terrible scenes take place. While family members look for
their
members, the Ukrainian soldiers of the battalion "Nachtigall" force
the
Jews under the instruction of German officers to crawl on their knees
to the corpses and wash them. Jewish women and girls are undressed
with
Gejohle and photographed then; the old men's mustaches are torn out."

High point of the Quaelereien is again and again an assigned ritual.
One of
the victims described it in such a way in the procedure against the
Politoffizier of the battalion "Nachtigall", the former Federal
Minister
Theodor , 1960 before the public prosecutor's office Bonn:
"heard continuously I the German
command: , Spiessrutenlaufen ' or, beginning to the Spiessrutenlaufen
'. This
command must have come to my memory from a group of German armed
forces
members, the something off the corpse pit stood and during the whole
time
watched [... ] it concerned officers [... ] on this German instruction
set up
themselves the Ukrainian soldiers in a spalier and planted the bayonet
up.
This spalier now the Jews present at the yard had to travel through,
whereby
the Ukrainian soldiers hit them and once oh EN [... ] became these
first Jews,
who had to go through, nearly all by bayonet passes killed."

On 1 July the terror increases and spreads in the whole city. A German
soldier, Lothar
Guenther Hochschulz wrote in his diary: "There Stalin lay -
in gypsum. Smashed. And Jews had to take this gypsum rubble away. - a
Jewess
however did not want. - one took it off in few minutes part-naked,
whipped
her and her in a forced manner to the work. - the Ukrainer created
itself
air." Hochschulz meets with its strolls by the city on Jews, who must
deseam
the trottoir with bare hands lightning bright, it meets men and women,
who are
driven somewhere by flogging Ukrainian militia. "who threw itself, in
order
not to have to continue, became literally dead, like rabid dogs.
Hernach came
troops with truck, those the exhausted Jews picked up." It is led by a
young
people German to one of the prisons and stands schaudernd before the
mass
graves. "... Zusammengetriebene Jews are shot on the Hofe."

A stone, ice-cold heart

In photos
one recognizes member of Feldgendarmerie, secret field police, police
or the battalion 800 subordinated
it mountain division. The battalion 800 commander Friedrich
William Heinz lays the blame on "the assigned police force". These
"would have goaded" the population on by "tormenting and shooting
indiscriminately together-driven Jews, among them women and children".
Heinz,
its report is written on 1 July and at 14 o'clock with 49. Corps dies,
means
the police troops of the armed forces, not the group of employments of
C, which
reaches Lemberg only around 1 and 2 July. Their order reads,
activities of gang-races to people to
terminate, which had proclaimed arbitrarily a Ukrainian state. First
the
Putschisten in Lemberg had to be arrested. Publicly in feature the
group of
employments stepped for the first time on 2 July with the execution of
100
Jews; on 4 July their commands, supported from the Ukrainian militia,
murdered
3000 Jews at the outskirts of a town. Lemberg belonged now to the
rear
army area, and there was a new commander of city. Still Jewish
citizens had to
save the corpses from the prisons; the public Jew hunt however was to
end.
4000 humans had been killed.

battalion 800 was
part of a secret command, which was subordinate to the supreme command
of the
armed forces directly for politically
delicate tasks. But the fact
already speaks that existing auxiliary contingent was to the command
with the
Ukrainian battalion "Nachtigall" a fanatic anti-Semitic and from
localwell-informed at the disposal.

Also from other places Galiziens are testified such actions of
gang RA trailers. These greyful manipulations at the dead ones the
fact fits
that Jewish victims of the NKWD from the Lemberger prisons were taken
away,
before the population received admission. It speaks some for the fact
that
"the Brandenburger" released the Jew murder. the message of the
mountain hunter regiment 99
reads
itself is in the morning of the same daily, therefore be enough before
opening
of the prisons for the population, come to "shooting of Jews by
Ukrainer". The
active role of the "Nachtigall" battalion at all these actions is well
documented,
and not only by Jewish witnesses. A report of the secret field police
notes that
the interpreters lent from there were in one like that "fanatischen
tendency"
opposite the Jews that "the borders of the usefulness [... ] would
have
already shown up in the context of the military discipline" on the
first day.
All this was covered "from above", in this case of the 17. Army.

In addition a puzzling expression of the commander of the 17 fits.
Army,
general Karl Heinrich of inverting nail. This had at the group of
employments
of C accompanying it lively to use "in the again occupied areas the
resident
anti-Jewish and anticommunist adjusted Poland for self cleaning
actions".
Inverting nail knew that SD boss pure hard Heydrich had instructed
such
actions to his groups of employments before beginning of the campaign.
And it
was informed about the events in Lemberg after the departure of the
Red Army.
Perhaps he wanted to ask the group of employments for support for his
own
"self cleaning action". The fact that he was an enemy of the Jews is
well-known. it belonged to 1944 to the closest circle of the military
resistance. The actual responsibility in Lemberg carried the 1.
Mountain
division under its commander Hubert Lanz

Military documents and personal certifications betray that Lanz were
convinced
and its officers of the debt or at least partial responsibility of the
Jews for
the NKVD murders.

Also for Lothar Guenther Hochschulz became Lemberg the school of the
force.
He saw the Quaelereien and shooting of Jews with his arrival, he
wrote:
in the
galizischen Bobrka, how a family of five Jewish family will kill. "I
heard so
animal death cries never before. Strangely! - it excited me not even
more [...
] in my accomodation met I with a Polish teacher, it spoke German
[... ] we
had itself maintained about the Jews, over whom murdered, about
everything. I
represented my opinion that all Jews would have to be simply dead-
struck.

An
extended version this contribution appeared just in the "magazine for
science
of history" NR. 5 (Metropol publishing house, Berlin; 24, - DM; ISSN
0044-2828)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
My parents also recounted how in the 1920s and 1930s their remembrance
marches to the cemetary of the Ukrainian Sichovi Striltsi were harrased
by Jewish youths. Could there be a connection with the class of NKVD
collaborators?
 
What "NKVD collaborators" do you keep on talking about? NKVD did their
arrests and murders themselves.
 > Why don't you read it for yourself? The link is above.
 >
 >>  that helped
 >> the NKVD compile the lists of the Ukrainian intelligentcia whom they had
 >> in those prisons?
 >>
 >
 > I am not sure what you mean by "lists" and "intelligentcia" here. NKVD
 > went after all classes, primarily the bourgeous. There were no lists
 > afaik. It was Bandera's UPA that had compiled lists of Jewish, Polish
   ^^^^^ opposite to afaik.
 > and Uke liberal  "intelligentcia" in advance.
 >
That is patently impossible, since the UPA was not formed until 1942-43.
 >
 >> And does it mention similar prisons in the surrounding towns?
 >>
 >
 > No, it deals exclusively with Lemberg, June 22 - July 4 1941.
 >
 > Read it.
 >
Sure. I hope to read your translation. :)
--
Rostyk
See above.
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-04 05:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
 >>>>> I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
 >>>>>http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
 >>>>> How is your German, BM?  Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
 >>>>> understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
 >>>> Well you could always ask MTRP.
 >>> I am almost done myself.
 >>>> Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
 >>>> Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
 >>>> you out.
 >>>> It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
 >>>> By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
 >>>> of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
 >>>> armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
 >>>> collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
 >>>> those to be liquidated?
 >>> Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
 >>> published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
 >>> "In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered inmates. The
 >>> Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to the rapid
 >>> advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation,
 >>> and a rebellion by Ukrainian nationalists."
 >>>> Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
 >>>> accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
 >>> Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
 >>>> P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
 >>>> in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
 >>>> searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
 >>>> among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
 >>>> --
 >>> Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
 >>> Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
 >> Yes, but does the article mention who were the collaborators
 >>
 >
 > The article mentions very few individual names. I don't think the
 > names of collaborators are known.
 >
No not individual names. But does the article state which ethnic or
cultural group the collaborators of the NKVD belonged to?
Can't you read?
----------------------------------------------
"When the German troops occupied Lemberg, there were about 160,000
Poles, 150,000 Jews and 50,000 Ukrainians.
In the three prisons of Lemberg Germans discovered murdered inmates.
The Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4000 prisoners due to
the rapid
advance of the German troops, missing means of transport, and a
rebellion of
Ukrainian nationalists.
A few hours later, Lemberg became the scene of wild excesses. The war
diary 49.
An officer of the Stadtkommandantur writes to his wife about the first
day of occupation: "Jews are
killed - easy Pogromstimmung [, ] so under the Ukrainians." But this
was not a "spontaneous"
act of Ukrainian "people's anger".
At noon, posters and handbills of the German Besatzer had appeared,
telling the population
There it stood to read who was responsible for the murders: the
"Jewish Bolsheviks".
Nearly identical posters of a "Ukrainian
National Committee" demanded the death of the Jews and communists and
praised Adolf Hitler and Stephan Bander.
Bandera was the leader of one of the two rivaling wings of the
Ukrainian
nationalist organization OUN, a sharply anti-Semitic
group OUN(B) that enjoyed the special protection of the German
military. The Germans
had set up the Ukrainer battalion "Nachtigall" in German uniforms and
under the instruction of German armed forces
officers.
Bandera prepared his people in the city for
the day of occupation: eye-witnesses report that in the deserted roads
"suddenly, as" people with badges and blue-yellow volumes appeared
to provide so-called order". They occupied, with
approval of the Germans, the police posts and took over their
functions. As
the first official act "Nachtigall" organized new militia to rush on
the Lemberger
Jews. Jews were dragged from their houses or taken on the street to
the three prisons.
On instruction of the commander of city, they were ordered to  take
corpses out  of the cells and mass
graves and lay down for identification in the yard of the prisons.
Already during collecting and way driving it comes to bad abusing. The
attacks
increase to the terror before the prisons: And stands spalier armed
civilians
and flogs with clubs and gewehrkolben on the Jews; Hundreds of humans
are
killed. With these excesses German soldiers kept out but did not
prevent the
public rush: an instruction forbids the use of force of arms against
Ukrainian civilians and militia. Prisons   there on the
inside, terrible scenes take place. While family members look for
their
members, the Ukrainian soldiers of the battalion "Nachtigall" force
the
 Jews under the instruction of German officers to crawl on their knees
to the corpses and wash them. Jewish women and girls are undressed
with
Gejohle and photographed then; the old men's mustaches are torn out."
High point of the Quaelereien is again and again an assigned ritual.
One of
the victims described it in such a way in the procedure against the
Politoffizier of the battalion "Nachtigall", the former Federal
Minister
"heard continuously I the German
command: , Spiessrutenlaufen ' or, beginning to the Spiessrutenlaufen
'. This
command must have come to my memory from a group of German armed
forces
members, the something off the corpse pit stood and during the whole
time
watched [... ] it concerned officers [... ] on this German instruction
set up
themselves the Ukrainian soldiers in a spalier and planted the bayonet
up.
This spalier now the Jews present at the yard had to travel through,
whereby
the Ukrainian soldiers hit them and once oh EN [... ] became these
first Jews,
who had to go through, nearly all by bayonet passes killed."
On 1 July the terror increases and spreads in the whole city. A German
soldier, Lothar
Guenther Hochschulz wrote in his diary: "There Stalin lay -
in gypsum. Smashed. And Jews had to take this gypsum rubble away. - a
Jewess
however did not want. - one took it off in few minutes part-naked,
whipped
her and her in a forced manner to the work. - the Ukrainer created
itself
air." Hochschulz meets with its strolls by the city on Jews, who must
deseam
the trottoir with bare hands lightning bright, it meets men and women,
who are
driven somewhere by flogging Ukrainian militia. "who threw itself, in
order
not to have to continue, became literally dead, like rabid dogs.
Hernach came
troops with truck, those the exhausted Jews picked up." It is led by a
young
people German to one of the prisons and stands schaudernd before the
mass
graves. "... Zusammengetriebene Jews are shot on the Hofe."
A stone, ice-cold heart
In photos
one recognizes member of Feldgendarmerie, secret field police, police
or the battalion 800 subordinated
it mountain division. The battalion 800  commander Friedrich
William Heinz lays the blame on "the assigned police force". These
"would have goaded" the population on by "tormenting and shooting
indiscriminately together-driven Jews, among them women and children".
Heinz,
its report is written on 1 July and at 14 o'clock with 49. Corps dies,
means
the police troops of the armed forces, not the group of employments of
C, which
 reaches Lemberg only around 1 and 2 July. Their order reads,
activities of gang-races to people to
terminate, which had proclaimed arbitrarily a Ukrainian state. First
the
Putschisten in Lemberg had to be arrested. Publicly in feature the
group of
employments stepped for the first time on 2 July with the execution of
100
Jews; on 4 July their commands, supported from the Ukrainian militia,
murdered
3000 Jews at the outskirts of a town.  Lemberg belonged now to the
rear
army area, and there was a new commander of city. Still Jewish
citizens had to
save the corpses from the prisons; the public Jew hunt however was to
end.
4000 humans had been killed.
battalion 800  was
part of a secret command, which was subordinate to the supreme command
of the
armed forces directly  for politically
delicate tasks. But the fact
already speaks that existing auxiliary contingent was to the command
with the
Ukrainian battalion "Nachtigall" a fanatic anti-Semitic and from
localwell-informed at the disposal.
 Also from other places Galiziens are testified such actions of
gang RA trailers. These greyful manipulations at the dead ones the
fact fits
that Jewish victims of the NKWD from the Lemberger prisons were taken
away,
before the population received admission. It speaks some for the fact
that
"the Brandenburger" released the Jew murder. the message of the
mountain hunter regiment 99
 reads
itself is in the morning of the same daily, therefore be enough before
opening
of the prisons for the population, come to "shooting of Jews by
Ukrainer". The
active role of the "Nachtigall" battalion at all these actions is well
documented,
and not only by Jewish witnesses. A report of the secret field police
notes that
the interpreters lent from there were in one like that "fanatischen
tendency"
opposite the Jews that "the borders of the usefulness [... ] would
have
already shown up in the context of the military discipline" on the
first day.
All this was covered "from above", in this case of the 17. Army.
In addition a puzzling expression of the commander of the 17 fits.
Army,
general Karl Heinrich of inverting nail. This had at the group of
employments
of C accompanying it lively to use "in the again occupied areas the
resident
anti-Jewish and anticommunist adjusted Poland for self cleaning
actions".
Inverting nail knew that SD boss pure hard Heydrich had instructed
such
actions to his groups of employments before beginning of the campaign.
And it
was informed about the events in Lemberg after the departure of the
Red Army.
Perhaps he wanted to ask the group of employments for support for his
own
"self cleaning action". The fact that he was an enemy of the Jews is
well-known. it belonged to 1944 to the closest circle of the military
resistance. The actual responsibility in Lemberg carried the 1.
Mountain
division under its commander Hubert Lanz
Military documents and personal certifications betray that Lanz were
convinced
and its officers of the debt or at least partial responsibility of the
Jews for
the NKVD murders.
Also for Lothar Guenther Hochschulz became Lemberg the school of the
force.
He saw the Quaelereien and shooting of Jews with his arrival, he
in the
galizischen Bobrka, how a family of five Jewish family will kill. "I
heard so
animal death cries never before. Strangely! - it excited me not even
more [...
] in my accomodation met I with a Polish teacher, it spoke German
[... ] we
had itself maintained about the Jews, over whom murdered, about
everything. I
represented my opinion that all Jews would have to be simply dead-
struck.
An
extended version this contribution appeared just in the "magazine for
science
of history" NR. 5 (Metropol publishing house, Berlin; 24, - DM; ISSN
0044-2828)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My parents also recounted how in the 1920s and 1930s their remembrance
marches to the cemetary of the Ukrainian Sichovi Striltsi were harrased
by Jewish youths.
Did you parents want to kill another 4,000 Jewish civilians as
retaliation for these youths' spitting?

Quite a difference between the perception of Jews by your parents in
West Ukraine and my "adopted" Uke grandmother Baba Valya from a
village near Luhansk, East Ukraine. She told me the story how her
father was almost killed by Uke nationalist soldiers in the Civil War
(was it Petliura's army?) when they discovered that her father, like
many others, hid a Jewish family in his cellar from the pogroms.

Could the Jewish youths' spitting in 1920s be related to the horrors
of the Jewish pogroms commited by Uke nationalists around 1919-1920?
Did these youths lose their parents in pogroms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Petlyura#Role_in_pogroms
Anti-Jewish pogroms accompanied the Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing
Russian Civil War where an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews
were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire.
During Petlura's term as Head of State (1919-20), pogroms continued to
be perpetrated on Ukrainian ethnic territory. In Ukraine itself, the
number of civilian Jews killed during the period is estimated to be
between 35 and 50 thousand.

It is like a never-ending vicious circle:

West Uke nationalists murder 35 to 50 thousand Jews
In retaliation for murders, Jewish orphans spit on civilian West Ukes
In retaliation for spitting, West Uke nationalists murder another 35
to 50 thousand Jews
In retaliation for murders, the new Jewish orphans spit on civilian
West Ukes again
etc
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Could there be a connection with the class of NKVD
collaborators?
 
What "NKVD collaborators" do you keep on talking about? NKVD did their
arrests and murders themselves.
 > Why don't you read it for yourself? The link is above.
 >
 >>  that helped
 >> the NKVD compile the lists of the Ukrainian intelligentcia whom they had
 >> in those prisons?
 >>
 >
 > I am not sure what you mean by "lists" and "intelligentcia" here. NKVD
 > went after all classes, primarily the bourgeous. There were no lists
 > afaik. It was Bandera's UPA that had compiled lists of Jewish, Polish
   ^^^^^ opposite to afaik.
 > and Uke liberal  "intelligentcia" in advance.
 >
That is patently impossible, since the UPA was not formed until 1942-43.
 >
 >> And does it mention similar prisons in the surrounding towns?
 >>
 >
 > No, it deals exclusively with Lemberg, June 22 - July 4 1941.
 >
 > Read it.
 >
Sure. I hope to read your translation. :)
--
Rostyk
See above.
The Black Monk
2008-03-05 04:41:21 UTC
Permalink
The author of the Zeit article was a former communist student group
leader who has made his career smearing the Wehrmacht.

Here is information from the Institute of History of the Ukrainian
Academy of sciences:

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/2.pdf

Page 12:

"It's an important fact, that the murdered Polish professors in Lviv
belong to those elements of the Polish intelligentsia that from
1940-1941 worked together with the Soviet regime. They were members of
soviet professional organizations, members of soviets, delegates of
Lviv's Polish community who in October 1940 had met with Stalin and
discussed the possibility of forming a pro-Soviet Polish government
(in opposition to the exiled Polish government in London). Thus, of
160 Polish professors, only 38 were chosen for execution for
collaboration with Stalin's regime."

The chapter also includes a lot of antisemitic statements by the OUN
from 1939-1941, generally along the lines of Jews= Bolsheviks,
including calls for exterminating Jews/Bolsheviks. It explained this
in part by noting that Jewish youths dominated pro-Soviet
organizations in Lviv prior to the war and dominated local Bolshevik
organizations durin gthe Soviet occupation, such that much of the
population equated Jews and Bolsheviks.

In terms of Nachtigalls participation in the anti-Jewish massacres,
the authors state that it's quite likely that individual OUN members
took part in the murders of Jews alongside other murderous civilians,
but stated that Nachtigall itself was outside the city when this
occurred. It stated that one can't rule out that some members may have
taken part, but the unit itself did not. It repeated that the Soviet
prosecutors themselves, at Nurnberg, blamed Germans for the killings
of the professors.

The authors noted that Nachtigall controlled Lviv for only about 5-6
hours, and that separate teams of Einsatzgruppen "C" groups were
finding their way around western Ukraine. Thousands of German
Ensatzgruppen and police were in the city by 5 AM on July 1st.

Furthermore, prior to releasing Nachtigall from combat duty on July
1st, Shukhevich told his men "do not carry out any commands by the
Germans or others, unless ordeed to do so by our commanders. Do not
take anyone's blood on your hands. Do not allow any crimes or revenge
against our enemies the Poles and the Jews, because it's not our
matter to take part in this."

Some Ukrainian eyewitnesses claimed that Poles committed much of the
revenge attacks (not unlikely, as most of the city's population was
Polish and many of the NKVD's victims were Poles) and even that the
Poles put on blue and yellow ribbons while doing so. It's no secret
that Lviv and western Ukraine was the electoral stronghold of Roman
Dmowski's antisemitic Polish "National Democrats." No witnesses in the
1940's suggested that Ukrainian military units were involved in any of
the massacres, although the use of the Ukrainian langiage was
widespread among the killers.

Speaking of the accuations that suddenly surfaced in 1959, the authors
were dismissive, noting sarcastically, (page 68):

"all the gathered "documents", "eyewtiness accounts", "memories" etc.
were published in the book, "The Truth about Oberlander." Strange,
that the fact remains that the infromation about these "facts"
appeared 18 years afterward and 14 years after their investigation by
competent organs, even though it was claimed that the information was
just "sitting" on the top and was gathered within only a month by
nonprofessional researchers and amateurs."

They then noted numerous inconsistencies in the "evidence". For
example only the names of three alleged killers from Nachtigall were
produced, one of whom confessed to killing Bartel in early July even
though Bartel was confirmed meeting with Himmler on July 25th and
executed the next day. In terms of the anti-Jewish pogroms, none of
the eyewitnesses could confirm that Nachtigall was involved, only that
Ukrainian-speaking people were

--------------
regards,

BM
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-05 05:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
The author of the Zeit article was a former communist student group
leader who has made his career smearing the Wehrmacht.
Yes, and Die Zeit too. A very marginal communist newspaper. I am sure
all those quotes from the official transcripts of the Bonn trial of
Oberlander were invented by the lying Die Zeit commies.

Die Zeit
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Type Weekly newspaper
Format Broadsheet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Owner Zeit-Verlag Gerd Bucerius GmbH & Co. KG
Editor Giovanni di Lorenzo
Founded 1946
Political allegiance centrist/liberal
Headquarters Speersort 1, 20095 Hamburg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Zeit

DIE ZEIT is a German nationwide weekly newspaper that is highly
respected for its quality journalism. With a circulation of 488,036
and an estimated readership of slightly above 2 million, it is the
most widely read German weekly newspaper. The paper is considered to
be highbrow. Its political direction is centrist to social liberal,
but has oscillated a number of times between slightly left-leaning and
slightly right-leaning. It is known for its very large physical size
and its long and detailed articles.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The only person, who is objective, is the Nazi apologist and
revisionist De Zayas, an author of some 10 large books on the Allied
crimes agaisnt Nazi Gemrany, who claims that 50 000 unarmed Uke
civilians (mostly infants, women and elderly) destroyed the 150 000-
strong Jewish community and killed 4 000 with their spoons,
screwdrivers, hammers and bare hands. Very believable.
Post by The Black Monk
Here is information from the Institute of History of the Ukrainian
http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/2.pdf
"It's an important fact, that the murdered Polish professors in Lviv
belong to those elements of the Polish intelligentsia that from
1940-1941 worked together with the Soviet regime. They were members of
soviet professional organizations, members of soviets, delegates of
Lviv's Polish community who in October 1940 had met with Stalin and
discussed the possibility of forming a pro-Soviet Polish government
(in opposition to the exiled Polish government in London). Thus, of
160 Polish professors, only 38 were chosen for execution for
collaboration with Stalin's regime."
The chapter also includes a lot of antisemitic statements by the OUN
from 1939-1941, generally along the lines of Jews= Bolsheviks,
including calls for exterminating Jews/Bolsheviks. It explained this
in part by noting that Jewish youths dominated pro-Soviet
organizations in Lviv prior to the war and dominated local Bolshevik
organizations durin gthe Soviet occupation, such that much of the
population equated Jews and Bolsheviks.
OK so far.
Post by The Black Monk
In terms of Nachtigalls participation in the anti-Jewish massacres,
the authors state that it's quite likely that individual OUN members
took part in the murders of Jews alongside other murderous civilians,
but stated that Nachtigall itself was outside the city when this
occurred.
No it wasn't. There is no argument that between June 30 and July 4, it
was inside the city. The Nachtigall veterans themselves claim that
they were in Lviv, peacefully resting in their homes (those from Lviv
itself) or in the homes of relatives (those from outside the
capital).
Post by The Black Monk
It stated that one can't rule out that some members may have
taken part, but the unit itself did not.
True. Die Zeit says that part of the Nachtigall unit immediately
assumed the role of the city Polizei (police) and, as Polizei, these
people organised the pogroms.

That's where the bayonettes and guns came from. Civilians don't have
bayonettes. 50 000 Ukes cannot massacre the 150 000 Jewish community.
They were led by the Polizei from Nachtigall, who had the guns. That's
what their own advising officer Oberlander said under oath at the Bonn
trial.

This story is absoltely clear now.
Post by The Black Monk
It repeated that the Soviet
prosecutors themselves, at Nurnberg, blamed Germans for the killings
of the professors.
The authors noted that Nachtigall controlled Lviv for only about 5-6
hours, and that separate teams of Einsatzgruppen "C" groups were
finding their way around western Ukraine. Thousands of German
Ensatzgruppen and police were in the city by 5 AM on July 1st.
But De Zayas claims that no Gemran army officers or soldiers
participated in the 4 days of pogroms. And so does Die Zeit. In fact,
Zayas' story mostly agrees with Die Zeit, except for the mysterious
Haague Tribunal trial of Oberlander in 1960. I googled the intire
internet for any mention of this trial. And exactly one reference: De
Zayes. Nothing else! The Bonn trial is mentioned al over the place,
but the presumably the International tribunal in Haague, chaired by
the resistance leaders and government ministers from all over Northern
Europe, does not exist anywhere except for De Zayas' page. If
Oberlander had been cleared by the official trial in Bonn in 1959, why
convene another trial in Haague several months later?
Post by The Black Monk
Furthermore, prior to releasing Nachtigall from combat duty on July
1st, Shukhevich told his men "do not carry out any commands by the
Germans or others, unless ordeed to do so by our commanders. Do not
take anyone's blood on your hands. Do not allow any crimes or revenge
against our enemies the Poles and the Jews, because it's not our
matter to take part in this."
Which document is that in?
Post by The Black Monk
Some Ukrainian eyewitnesses claimed that Poles committed much of the
revenge attacks (not unlikely, as most of the city's population was
Polish and many of the NKVD's victims were Poles) and even that the
Poles put on blue and yellow ribbons while doing so. It's no secret
that Lviv and western Ukraine was the electoral stronghold of Roman
Dmowski's antisemitic Polish "National Democrats." No witnesses in the
1940's suggested that Ukrainian military units were involved in any of
the massacres, although the use of the Ukrainian langiage was
widespread among the killers.
Intersting, eh? The lingua franca in Lviv was Polish, there were 160
000 Poles, 150 000 Jews and only 50 000 Ukes. Even the Ukes and Jews
spoke Polish in public stores and gatherings. And if not Polish - then
Austrian German/Yiddish. Why did the pogromschiks speak Ukrainian?

And why did the tiny unarmed civilian Uke minority feel so free and
invincible against the overwhelming Jewish numbers? The Jews could
have squashed them, 3 to 1. Could it be that these pogroms of unarmed
Jewish civilains were led by the armed Polizei from Nachtigall, who
spoke Ukrainian? Doesn't it explain everything? Can any other theory
explain this?
Post by The Black Monk
Speaking of the accuations that suddenly surfaced in 1959, the authors
 "all the gathered "documents", "eyewtiness accounts", "memories" etc.
were published in the book, "The Truth about Oberlander." Strange,
that the fact remains that the infromation about these "facts"
appeared 18 years afterward and 14 years after their investigation by
competent organs, even though it was claimed that the information was
just "sitting" on the top and was gathered within only a month by
nonprofessional researchers and amateurs."
They then noted numerous inconsistencies in the "evidence". For
example only the names of three alleged killers from Nachtigall were
produced, one of whom confessed to killing Bartel in early July even
though Bartel was confirmed meeting with Himmler on July 25th and
executed the next day. In terms of the anti-Jewish pogroms, none of
the eyewitnesses could confirm that Nachtigall was involved, only that
Ukrainian-speaking people were
These were the Polizei. And most of them, along with all the guns and
bayonnetes, came from Nachtigall soldiers. What can be clearer than
that? Why would peaceful civilan Lvivan men, who had decided not to
join Hitler's forces, kill Jews and professors with their bare hands;
while extremist fascist militarist Lvivan men from Nachtigall, who had
solemnly sworn to follow Hitler anywhere, refuse participate in the
pogroms and even move out of their own home city?

All the eyewitness evidence, diaries, letters home say this, from de
Zayas to Die Zeit to the Holcaust Ebcyclopedia to Piotrowsky to
Rusin. Why fight it? Why blame Uke civilians for more than they
actually did? Just to whitewash Yuschenko's politically-motivated
stupidity of naming Shukhevych a Hero of Ukraine?
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-05 06:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Look, BM, face the truth. All people are born of equal capability for
love and hatred. What determines whether a particular group in a
particular region is racist or not is the environment. People, who
grow up in safe, comfortable conditions and who were taught the
liberal values, are seldom racists. People, who feel oppressed and
discrimintated, grow up to be the worst racists.

It is clear to me that the Ukes in Polish-occupied/Austrian Galicia
felt much worse than Ukes in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union, who felt
at home, most of whom felt that they were free Ukrainains in free
Ukraine and who were taught by Soviets to be tolerant. And
statisitcally, there was much more racism in Galicia than in Soviet
Ukriane. More Jew-hate, more Russian-hate, more Pole-hate. More
hatered towards everybody. Because Galicia was under foreign
occupation, and Soviet Ukriane was not.

Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.

Was every single Nachtigall soldier/officer antisemitic? No. Was the
killing of Jews part of Nachtigall charter/goals? No. Could there have
been some ethnic Hebrews or Ukes, married to Jewesses, in UPA/OUN?
Yes. Could UPA/OUN have awareded one of Ukriane's top awards to a
Jewish doctor or hospital director? Yes.

Was Shukhevych himself an anti-semite? There is no certainty either
way. He never wrote anything antisemitic, although you yourself write
that he called Jews and Poles "enemies", which does betray a racist,
who judges entire ethnic groups rather than individuals.

But in any case, Shukhevych was the leader of one of the most hateful,
racist and antisemitic units in all of WWII: Nachtigall, which also
solemnly swore allegience and obedience to Hitler .

A single man, Shukhevych, on his own could not have accoplished any
military victories. His accomplishments were won by his Nachtigall
men. Shukhevych is the symbol of Nachtigall. Much of the hatered/love
towards him reflects attitudes towards Nachtigall rather than him as a
private individual. When you honour Shukhevych, you honour Nachtigall.
Shukhevych is just the symbol of them, just as Lenin and Trotsky are
the symbols of Bolsheviks. If you disapprove of what Bolsheviks did,
you cannot honour Lenin. Ditto for Shukhevych and Nachtigall. End of
story. Let the sleeping dogs lie. The more you dig, the more ugliness
you discover. Don't insult the memory of millions of Nazis' civilian
victims in Ukraine, be they Uke, Jewish, Russian or Polish. Don't
insult the memory of millions of soldiers from Ukraine, be they Uke,
Jewish, Russian or Polish, who died in battles against the Nazis.
Don't insult the feelings of the still-living war veterans and of the
majority of Ukraine's population, who hate Hitler and those who helped
him and killed innocent civilains, and who celebrate May 9 as their
biggest holiday, with Yuschenko and Tymoshenko themselves leading the
May 9 veteran marches. Be consistent (not you, but Yuschenko).
Post by The Black Monk
The author of the Zeit article was a former communist student group
leader who has made his career smearing the Wehrmacht.
Yes, and Die Zeit too.  A very marginal communist newspaper. I am sure
all those quotes from the official transcripts of the Bonn trial of
Oberlander were invented by the lying Die Zeit commies.
Die Zeit
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Type Weekly newspaper
Format Broadsheet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
Owner Zeit-Verlag Gerd Bucerius GmbH & Co. KG
Editor Giovanni di Lorenzo
Founded 1946
Political allegiance centrist/liberal
Headquarters Speersort 1, 20095 Hamburg
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Zeit
DIE ZEIT is a German nationwide weekly newspaper that is highly
respected for its quality journalism. With a circulation of 488,036
and an estimated readership of slightly above 2 million, it is the
most widely read German weekly newspaper. The paper is considered to
be highbrow. Its political direction is centrist to social liberal,
but has oscillated a number of times between slightly left-leaning and
slightly right-leaning. It is known for its very large physical size
and its long and detailed articles.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The only person, who is objective, is the Nazi apologist and
revisionist De Zayas, an author of some 10 large books on the Allied
crimes agaisnt Nazi Gemrany, who claims that 50 000 unarmed Uke
civilians (mostly infants, women and elderly) destroyed the 150 000-
strong Jewish community and killed 4 000 with their spoons,
screwdrivers, hammers and bare hands. Very believable.
Post by The Black Monk
Here is information from the Institute of History of the Ukrainian
http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/2.pdf
"It's an important fact, that the murdered Polish professors in Lviv
belong to those elements of the Polish intelligentsia that from
1940-1941 worked together with the Soviet regime. They were members of
soviet professional organizations, members of soviets, delegates of
Lviv's Polish community who in October 1940 had met with Stalin and
discussed the possibility of forming a pro-Soviet Polish government
(in opposition to the exiled Polish government in London). Thus, of
160 Polish professors, only 38 were chosen for execution for
collaboration with Stalin's regime."
The chapter also includes a lot of antisemitic statements by the OUN
from 1939-1941, generally along the lines of Jews= Bolsheviks,
including calls for exterminating Jews/Bolsheviks. It explained this
in part by noting that Jewish youths dominated pro-Soviet
organizations in Lviv prior to the war and dominated local Bolshevik
organizations durin gthe Soviet occupation, such that much of the
population equated Jews and Bolsheviks.
OK so far.
Post by The Black Monk
In terms of Nachtigalls participation in the anti-Jewish massacres,
the authors state that it's quite likely that individual OUN members
took part in the murders of Jews alongside other murderous civilians,
but stated that Nachtigall itself was outside the city when this
occurred.
No it wasn't. There is no argument that between June 30 and July 4, it
was inside the city. The Nachtigall veterans themselves claim that
they were in Lviv, peacefully resting in their homes (those from Lviv
itself) or in the homes of relatives (those from outside the
capital).
Post by The Black Monk
It stated that one can't rule out that some members may have
taken part, but the unit itself did not.
True. Die Zeit says that part of the Nachtigall unit immediately
assumed the role of the city Polizei (police) and, as Polizei, these
people organised the pogroms.
That's where the bayonettes and guns came from. Civilians don't have
bayonettes. 50 000 Ukes cannot massacre the 150 000 Jewish community.
They were led by the Polizei from Nachtigall, who had the guns. That's
what their own advising officer Oberlander said under oath at the Bonn
trial.
This story is absoltely clear now.
Post by The Black Monk
 It repeated that the Soviet
prosecutors themselves, at Nurnberg, blamed Germans for the killings
of the professors.
The authors noted that Nachtigall controlled Lviv for only about 5-6
hours, and that separate teams of Einsatzgruppen "C" groups were
finding their way around western Ukraine. Thousands of German
Ensatzgruppen and police were in the city by 5 AM on July 1st.
But De Zayas claims that no Gemran army officers or soldiers
participated in the 4 days of pogroms. And so does Die Zeit. In fact,
Zayas' story mostly agrees with Die Zeit, except for the mysterious
Haague Tribunal trial of Oberlander in 1960. I googled the intire
internet for any mention of this trial. And exactly one reference: De
Zayes. Nothing else! The Bonn trial is mentioned al over the place,
but the presumably the International tribunal in Haague, chaired by
the resistance leaders and government ministers from all over Northern
Europe, does not exist anywhere except for De Zayas' page. If
Oberlander had been cleared by the official trial in Bonn in 1959, why
convene another trial in Haague several months later?
Post by The Black Monk
Furthermore, prior to releasing Nachtigall from combat duty on July
1st, Shukhevich told his men "do not carry out any commands by the
Germans or others, unless ordeed to do so by our commanders. Do not
take anyone's blood on your hands. Do not allow any crimes or revenge
against our enemies the Poles and the Jews, because it's not our
matter to take part in this."
Which document is that in?
Post by The Black Monk
Some Ukrainian eyewitnesses claimed that Poles committed much of the
revenge attacks (not unlikely, as most of the city's population was
Polish and many of the NKVD's victims were Poles) and even that the
Poles put on blue and yellow ribbons while doing so. It's no secret
that Lviv and western Ukraine was the electoral stronghold of Roman
Dmowski's antisemitic Polish "National Democrats." No witnesses in the
1940's suggested that Ukrainian military units were involved in any of
the massacres, although the use of the Ukrainian langiage was
widespread among the killers.
Intersting, eh? The lingua franca in Lviv was Polish, there were 160
000 Poles, 150 000 Jews and only 50 000 Ukes. Even the Ukes and Jews
spoke Polish in public stores and gatherings. And if not Polish - then
Austrian German/Yiddish. Why did the pogromschiks speak Ukrainian?
And why did the tiny unarmed civilian Uke minority feel so free and
invincible against the overwhelming Jewish numbers? The Jews could
have squashed them, 3 to 1. Could it be that these pogroms of unarmed
Jewish civilains were led by the armed Polizei from Nachtigall, who
spoke Ukrainian? Doesn't it explain everything? Can any other theory
explain this?
Post by The Black Monk
Speaking of the accuations that suddenly surfaced in 1959, the authors
 "all the gathered "documents", "eyewtiness accounts", "memories" etc.
were published in the book, "The Truth about Oberlander." Strange,
that the fact remains that the infromation about these "facts"
appeared 18 years afterward and 14 years after their investigation by
competent organs, even though it was claimed that the information was
just "sitting" on the top and was gathered within only a month by
nonprofessional researchers and amateurs."
They then noted numerous inconsistencies in the "evidence". For
example only the names of three alleged killers from Nachtigall were
produced, one of whom confessed to killing Bartel in early July even
though Bartel was confirmed meeting with Himmler on July 25th and
executed the next day. In terms of the anti-Jewish pogroms, none of
the eyewitnesses could confirm that Nachtigall was involved, only that
Ukrainian-speaking people were
These were the Polizei. And most of them, along with all the guns and
bayonnetes, came from Nachtigall soldiers.  What can be clearer than
that? Why would peaceful civilan Lvivan men, who had decided not to
join Hitler's forces, kill Jews and professors with their bare hands;
while extremist fascist militarist Lvivan men from Nachtigall, who had
solemnly sworn to follow Hitler anywhere, refuse participate in the
pogroms and even move out of their own home city?
All the eyewitness evidence, diaries, letters home say this, from de
Zayas to Die Zeit to the Holcaust Ebcyclopedia to Piotrowsky to
Rusin.  Why fight it? Why blame Uke civilians for more than they
actually did? Just to whitewash Yuschenko's politically-motivated
stupidity of naming Shukhevych a Hero of Ukraine?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-05 18:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, BM, face the truth. All people are born of equal capability for
love and hatred.
This of course is an unproved, and perhaps unprovable, premise.
But let's accept it until disproved. Which perhaps in school
debate fashion, someone with that kind of training may attempt.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
What determines whether a particular group in a
particular region is racist or not is the environment. People, who
grow up in safe, comfortable conditions and who were taught the
liberal values, are seldom racists. People, who feel oppressed and
discrimintated, grow up to be the worst racists.
Does the above explanation then explain the attitudes and policies
of the rulers, and the attitudes of the majority of people of the
state of Israeli?
Can this be further extended to explain the behavior of the Palestinians?
--
Rostyk
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-05 21:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, BM, face the truth. All people are born of equal capability for
love and hatred.
 >
This of course is an unproved, and perhaps unprovable, premise.
But let's accept it until disproved. Which perhaps in school
debate fashion, someone with that kind of training may attempt.
 >> What determines whether a particular group in a
Post by o***@hotmail.com
particular region is racist or not is the environment. People, who
grow up in safe, comfortable conditions and who were taught the
liberal values, are seldom racists. People, who feel oppressed and
discrimintated, grow up to be the worst racists.
Does the above explanation then explain the attitudes and policies
of the rulers, and the attitudes of the majority of people of the
state of Israeli?
Can this be further extended to explain the behavior of the Palestinians?
--
Sorry. I am not an expert on Middle East. Ask somebody at
soc.culture.israel.
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-06 07:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, BM, face the truth. All people are born of equal capability for
love and hatred.
 >
This of course is an unproved, and perhaps unprovable, premise.
But let's accept it until disproved. Which perhaps in school
debate fashion, someone with that kind of training may attempt.
 >> What determines whether a particular group in a
Post by o***@hotmail.com
particular region is racist or not is the environment. People, who
grow up in safe, comfortable conditions and who were taught the
liberal values, are seldom racists. People, who feel oppressed and
discrimintated, grow up to be the worst racists.
Does the above explanation then explain the attitudes and policies
of the rulers, and the attitudes of the majority of people of the
state of Israeli?
Can this be further extended to explain the behavior of the Palestinians?
--
Sorry. I am not an expert on Middle East. Ask somebody at
soc.culture.israel.
But I guess it does very much. When two peoples of different relgions
contend for the same piece of land, it is a neverending tragedy.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-05 18:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
It is clear to me that the Ukes in Polish-occupied/Austrian Galicia
felt much worse than Ukes in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union, who felt
at home, most of whom felt that they were free Ukrainains in free
Ukraine and who were taught by Soviets to be tolerant. And
statisitcally, there was much more racism in Galicia than in Soviet
Ukriane. More Jew-hate, more Russian-hate, more Pole-hate. More
hatered towards everybody. Because Galicia was under foreign
occupation, and Soviet Ukriane was not.
I am sure that you must be right, especially after the experience
of the Ukrainians in their past dealings with the Russians, and
extending to their experiences of the 1920s and the artificial
famine of 1932-33, and to their familiarity with who made up a
disproportionate part of the CHEKA and the NKVD, and the communist
ruling apparatus.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-05 18:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.
Nationalistic - O.k. we'll stipulate that. You may even use the term
patriotic.
racist - That is your unproved and unprovable claim, being made solely
for slandrous purposes. First define for us what do you, operationally,
mean by this term. Also explain what you use as your method of comparison
for degree of racism. Finally present your evidence that the unit took
part in the vengence 'pogroms'.
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-06 03:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.
Nationalistic - O.k. we'll stipulate that. You may even use the term
patriotic.
racist - That is your unproved and unprovable claim, being made solely
for slandrous purposes. First define for us
What do you mean by "us"? Have you been thinking of yourself in plural
lately? When did you split your personality?

Or by "us", do you mean yourself and BM? Since when has he started
sharing your shallow, pompous, lazy, bigoted, russophobic and
antisemitic opinions? You two belong to different biological genera,
trust me.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
what do you, operationally,
mean by this term. Also explain what you use as your method of comparison
for degree of racism. Finally present your evidence that the unit took
part in the vengence 'pogroms'.
Will you also give "us" a quiz tomorrow?

Let me see... The only subject you know without telling others to do
the thinking and research for you, is boiling peanuts. Damn. I know
nothing about that subject. I am going to get cooked at the quiz
tomorrow....
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-06 04:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.
Nationalistic - O.k. we'll stipulate that. You may even use the term
patriotic.
racist - That is your unproved and unprovable claim, being made solely
for slandrous purposes. First define for us
What do you mean by "us"? Have you been thinking of yourself in plural
lately? When did you split your personality?
No. no. I don't have your personality problem. Nor am I following
your example. Your alter egos even hold conversations with each other
here in scr. vkarlamov <--> ostap_bender_1900. And ostap even
replies to his own postings.
I use "for us" to refer to the readership of this group.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Or by "us", do you mean yourself and BM? Since when has he started
sharing your shallow, pompous, lazy, bigoted, russophobic and
antisemitic opinions? You two belong to different biological genera,
trust me.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
what do you, operationally,
mean by this term. Also explain what you use as your method of comparison
for degree of racism. Finally present your evidence that the unit took
part in the vengence 'pogroms'.
Will you also give "us" a quiz tomorrow?
Let me see... The only subject you know without telling others to do
the thinking and research for you, is boiling peanuts. Damn. I know
nothing about that subject. I am going to get cooked at the quiz
tomorrow....
Do you then, consider yourself to be a peanut?
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-06 04:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.
Nationalistic - O.k. we'll stipulate that. You may even use the term
patriotic.
racist - That is your unproved and unprovable claim, being made solely
for slandrous purposes. First define for us
What do you mean by "us"? Have you been thinking of yourself in plural
lately? When did you split your personality?
 >
No. no. I don't have your personality problem. Nor am I following
your example. Your alter egos even hold conversations with each other
here in scr.  vkarlamov <--> ostap_bender_1900. And ostap even
replies to his own postings.
I use "for us" to refer to the readership of this group.
When were you elected the Official Spokesman of SCB or SCR?
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Or by "us", do you mean yourself and BM? Since when has he started
sharing your shallow, pompous, lazy, bigoted, russophobic and
antisemitic opinions? You two belong to different biological genera,
trust me.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
what do you, operationally,
mean by this term. Also explain what you use as your method of comparison
for degree of racism. Finally present your evidence that the unit took
part in the vengence 'pogroms'.
Will you also give "us" a quiz tomorrow?
Let me see... The only subject you know without telling others to do
the thinking and research for you, is boiling peanuts. Damn. I know
nothing about that subject. I am going to get cooked at the quiz
tomorrow....
Do you then, consider yourself to be a peanut?
Why do you ask? Peanut envy?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-06 17:13:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.
Nationalistic - O.k. we'll stipulate that. You may even use the term
patriotic.
racist - That is your unproved and unprovable claim, being made solely
for slandrous purposes. First define for us
What do you mean by "us"? Have you been thinking of yourself in plural
lately? When did you split your personality?
No. no. I don't have your personality problem. Nor am I following
your example. Your alter egos even hold conversations with each other
here in scr. vkarlamov <--> ostap_bender_1900. And ostap even
replies to his own postings.
I use "for us" to refer to the readership of this group.
When were you elected the Official Spokesman of SCB or SCR?
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Or by "us", do you mean yourself and BM? Since when has he started
sharing your shallow, pompous, lazy, bigoted, russophobic and
antisemitic opinions? You two belong to different biological genera,
trust me.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
what do you, operationally,
mean by this term. Also explain what you use as your method of comparison
for degree of racism. Finally present your evidence that the unit took
part in the vengence 'pogroms'.
Will you also give "us" a quiz tomorrow?
Let me see... The only subject you know without telling others to do
the thinking and research for you, is boiling peanuts. Damn. I know
nothing about that subject. I am going to get cooked at the quiz
tomorrow....
Do you then, consider yourself to be a peanut?
Why do you ask? Peanut envy?
OOOOH... and which ostap do we have answering this time? ? ?
captain.
2008-03-05 22:00:33 UTC
Permalink
<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1edf6bc4-c306-4a9e-9d77-***@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Look, BM, face the truth. All people are born of equal capability for
love and hatred. What determines whether a particular group in a
particular region is racist or not is the environment. People, who
grow up in safe, comfortable conditions and who were taught the
liberal values, are seldom racists. People, who feel oppressed and
discrimintated, grow up to be the worst racists.

It is clear to me that the Ukes in Polish-occupied/Austrian Galicia
felt much worse than Ukes in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union, who felt
at home, most of whom felt that they were free Ukrainains in free
Ukraine and who were taught by Soviets to be tolerant. And
statisitcally, there was much more racism in Galicia than in Soviet
Ukriane. More Jew-hate, more Russian-hate, more Pole-hate. More
hatered towards everybody. Because Galicia was under foreign
occupation, and Soviet Ukriane was not.

Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians. Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.

Was every single Nachtigall soldier/officer antisemitic? No. Was the
killing of Jews part of Nachtigall charter/goals? No. Could there have
been some ethnic Hebrews or Ukes, married to Jewesses, in UPA/OUN?
Yes. Could UPA/OUN have awareded one of Ukriane's top awards to a
Jewish doctor or hospital director? Yes.

Was Shukhevych himself an anti-semite? There is no certainty either
way. He never wrote anything antisemitic, although you yourself write
that he called Jews and Poles "enemies", which does betray a racist,
who judges entire ethnic groups rather than individuals.

But in any case, Shukhevych was the leader of one of the most hateful,
racist and antisemitic units in all of WWII: Nachtigall, which also
solemnly swore allegience and obedience to Hitler .

A single man, Shukhevych, on his own could not have accoplished any
military victories. His accomplishments were won by his Nachtigall
men. Shukhevych is the symbol of Nachtigall. Much of the hatered/love
towards him reflects attitudes towards Nachtigall rather than him as a
private individual. When you honour Shukhevych, you honour Nachtigall.
Shukhevych is just the symbol of them, just as Lenin and Trotsky are
the symbols of Bolsheviks. If you disapprove of what Bolsheviks did,
you cannot honour Lenin. Ditto for Shukhevych and Nachtigall. End of
story. Let the sleeping dogs lie. The more you dig, the more ugliness
you discover. Don't insult the memory of millions of Nazis' civilian
victims in Ukraine, be they Uke, Jewish, Russian or Polish. Don't
insult the memory of millions of soldiers from Ukraine, be they Uke,
Jewish, Russian or Polish, who died in battles against the Nazis.
Don't insult the feelings of the still-living war veterans and of the
majority of Ukraine's population, who hate Hitler and those who helped
him and killed innocent civilains, and who celebrate May 9 as their
biggest holiday, with Yuschenko and Tymoshenko themselves leading the
May 9 veteran marches. Be consistent (not you, but Yuschenko).


- good rant karla, but beware! BM can dish it out too.
The Black Monk
2008-03-07 03:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Look, BM, face the truth. All people are born of equal capability for
love and hatred. What determines whether a particular group in a
particular region is racist or not is the environment. People, who
grow up in safe, comfortable conditions and who were taught the
liberal values, are seldom racists. People, who feel oppressed and
discrimintated, grow up to be the worst racists.
Does that make Jews from the 1930's and 1940's the worst racists ever
in history? Followed by Armenian refugees from 1920's Turkey?

Actually the worst racists are insecure oppressors, such as Southern
whites and Afrikaners, Protestants from Northern Ireland, Poles from
1930's Galicia and probably Russians from the Baltics.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
It is clear to me that the Ukes in Polish-occupied/Austrian Galicia
felt much worse than Ukes in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union, who felt
at home, most of whom felt that they were free Ukrainains in free
Ukraine and who were taught by Soviets to be tolerant. And
statisitcally, there was much more racism in Galicia than in Soviet
Ukriane.
Wrong. There were no pogroms done by Ukrainians in Galica, they all
happened in central and eastern Ukraine. Western Ukrainians and Jews
cooperated heavily after World War I. The government of Western
Ukraine reserved 10% of its parliametary seats to Jews, and unlike
Poles who boycotted the Uke government, Jews were active
participants. There was even an all-Jewish battalion within the
Ukrainian Galician Army:

http://www.infoukes.com/newpathway/Page833.htm

Jewish Battalion of the Ukrainian Galician Army (Zhydivskyi kurin
UHA). The battalion was formed from Jewish militia units in the city
of Ternopil during June 1919 as part of the Ukrainian Galician Army
(UHA). It was commanded by Lieutenant S. Leimberg and initially was
under direct operational control of 1 Corps Headquarters. The
battalion reached a total strength of 1,200 soldiers, who were
organized into four infantry companies, one machine-gun company, one
engineer company, and other units. After basic training in Ostapie,
Skalat county, the battalion was sent to the Polish front and was in
combat from 14 July 1919. During the withdrawal of the UHA to the
east, the battalion initially had responsibility for rearguard
security and later participated in combat against Bolshevik forces in
Proskuriv (Khmelnytskyi) and captured the town of Mykhalpil
(Mykhailivka). In Vinnytsia the battalion's mission was to secure the
city and the headquarters of 1 Corps. In the march on Kiev in late
August 1919 the battalion was attached to the 6th Brigade with the
mission of gaining and securing the rail station at Sviatoshyne. In
September 1919 the battalion was temporarily stationed in Berdychiv,
where its actions in securing the town gained wide support among the
local people. After transfer to Vinnytsia in late autumn 1919, the
battalion was so decimated by the typhus epidemic that it was
disbanded and its surviving soldiers were reassigned to other UHA
units.

Actually the only pogrom to have occurred in western Ukraine was done
by the Poles right after they captured Lviv from the UKrainians.

Ironically, the main figure who inspired fascism in western Ukraine in
the 1930's was an emigre to Lviv from eastern Ukraine: Dmytro Donstov,
who came from a Cossack family and studied law in St. Petersburg
before World War I:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Dontsov
Post by o***@hotmail.com
More Jew-hate, more Russian-hate, more Pole-hate. More
hatered towards everybody. Because Galicia was under foreign
occupation, and Soviet Ukriane was not.
Is that why most concentration camp guards were former Sovier army
prisoners?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Most of the men, who joined Nachtigall, came from the most
nationalistic and racist right-wing circles of the Lviv and Galcian
society. On average, Nachtigall soldiers were much more racist than
average Lvivans/Galicians.
Evidence?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Thus, it is no surprise that many of these
soldiers led the pogroms on June 30 - July 4.
Was every single Nachtigall soldier/officer antisemitic? No. Was the
killing of Jews part of Nachtigall charter/goals? No. Could there have
been some ethnic Hebrews or Ukes, married to Jewesses, in UPA/OUN?
Yes. Could UPA/OUN have awareded one of Ukriane's top awards to a
Jewish doctor or hospital director? Yes.
Not could, but did and were.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Was Shukhevych himself an anti-semite? There is no certainty either
way. He never wrote anything antisemitic, although you yourself write
that he called Jews and Poles "enemies", which does betray a racist,
who judges entire ethnic groups rather than individuals.
He referred to those who specifically helped the Bolsheviks.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
But in any case, Shukhevych was the leader of one of the most hateful,
racist and antisemitic units in all of WWII: Nachtigall, which  also
solemnly swore allegience and obedience to Hitler .
Only in fighting for Ukraine. The minute it became clear that Hitler
wouldn't help Ukraine, everything changed. This is no more immoral
than Churchill fighting with Stalin for the sake of Britain.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
A single man, Shukhevych, on his own could not have accoplished any
military victories. His accomplishments were won by his Nachtigall
men. Shukhevych is the symbol of Nachtigall. Much of the hatered/love
towards him reflects attitudes towards Nachtigall rather than him as a
private individual. When you honour Shukhevych, you honour Nachtigall.
Actually Shukhevich is honored primarily for his role in UPA.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Shukhevych is just the symbol of them, just as Lenin and Trotsky are
the symbols of Bolsheviks. If you disapprove of what Bolsheviks did,
you cannot honour Lenin. Ditto for Shukhevych and Nachtigall. End of
story.  Let the sleeping dogs lie. The more you dig, the more ugliness
you discover.
Most of the ugliness are fairytales reflecting the ugliness of their
authors.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Don't insult the memory of millions of Nazis' civilian
victims in Ukraine, be they Uke, Jewish, Russian or Polish.
Cheaping their tragedy by using them as props in some sick drama to
portray heroic (even if flawed) individuals such as Shukhevich as Nazi
thugs and lackeys is pretty insulting, don't you think?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Don't
insult the memory of millions of soldiers from Ukraine, be they Uke,
Jewish, Russian or Polish, who died in battles against the Nazis.
Equating those millions of soldiers with Ukraine-hating pro-soviet
Stalinists is pretty insulting, no?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Don't insult the feelings of the still-living war veterans and of the
majority of Ukraine's population, who hate Hitler and those who helped
him and killed innocent civilains, and who celebrate May 9 as their
biggest holiday, with Yuschenko and Tymoshenko themselves leading the
May 9 veteran marches.  Be consistent (not you, but Yuschenko).
See my other post for replies to the below...

...cut...

regards,

BM

The Black Monk
2008-03-07 03:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
In terms of Nachtigalls participation in the anti-Jewish massacres,
the authors state that it's quite likely that individual OUN members
took part in the murders of Jews alongside other murderous civilians,
but stated that Nachtigall itself was outside the city when this
occurred.
No it wasn't. There is no argument that between June 30 and July 4, it
was inside the city. The Nachtigall veterans themselves claim that
they were in Lviv, peacefully resting in their homes (those from Lviv
itself) or in the homes of relatives (those from outside the
capital).
My misquote, sorry. Nachtigall was on on leave from July 1st until
July 7th. As you correctly stated, many members were outside the city
but many more were in the city.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
It stated that one can't rule out that some members may have
taken part, but the unit itself did not.
True. Die Zeit says that part of the Nachtigall unit immediately
assumed the role of the city Polizei (police) and, as Polizei, these
people organised the pogroms.
Oh? Which part? Five Nachtigall members? Twenty? One hundred? Or
perhaps none.

I trust the collective work of the Institute of History of the
Ukrainian Academy of Sciences more than a ex-communist youth leader
writing for a newspaper. The former, having reviewed Soviet and
German archives concluded:

...that in all accounts blame lies on individuals who theoretically
may have belonged to Nachtigall, but in not a single account was it
claimed that the Battalion was involved, that the entire legion
committed crimes against Jews (as was the case with Hilfpolizei in
Lviv in 1943). Moreover, the majority of witnesses who blamed
Nachtigall individuals, based their claims on the fact that they were
speaking the Ukrainian language [i.e., they spoke Ukrainian, thus
Nachtigall! - BM]. However, in Lviv the German field gendermes
included hundreds of Ukrainian personnel made up of refugees from
1939-1941, as well as hundreds of volksdeutsche from Ukraine and Volyn
chosen for their fluency in the local languages (Ukrainian and
Polish). Therefore among the criminals there would have been more
than enough Ukrainian-speaking people with no connection to OUN or
DUN.

The authors from the Institute of History reviewed a Soviet report
that included 25 typewritten pages about Nachtigall. No mention is
made in this report of any anti-Polish and anti-Jewish actions by
Nachtigall in July 1941.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
That's where the bayonettes and guns came from. Civilians don't have
bayonettes. 50 000 Ukes cannot massacre the 150 000 Jewish community.
They were led by the Polizei from Nachtigall, who had the guns. That's
what their own advising officer Oberlander said under oath at the Bonn
trial.
See above.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
This story is absoltely clear now.
Yes.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
 It repeated that the Soviet
prosecutors themselves, at Nurnberg, blamed Germans for the killings
of the professors.
The authors noted that Nachtigall controlled Lviv for only about 5-6
hours, and that separate teams of Einsatzgruppen "C" groups were
finding their way around western Ukraine. Thousands of German
Ensatzgruppen and police were in the city by 5 AM on July 1st.
But De Zayas claims that no Gemran army officers or soldiers
participated in the 4 days of pogroms. And so does Die Zeit. In fact,
Zayas' story mostly agrees with Die Zeit, except for the mysterious
Haague Tribunal trial of Oberlander in 1960. I googled the intire
internet for any mention of this trial. And exactly one reference: De
Zayes. Nothing else! The Bonn trial is mentioned al over the place,
but the presumably the International tribunal in Haague, chaired by
the resistance leaders and government ministers from all over Northern
Europe, does not exist anywhere except for De Zayas' page. If
Oberlander had been cleared by the official trial in Bonn in 1959, why
convene another trial in Haague several months later?
Who knows? But the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences are probably more
credible better than both de Zayas and die Zeit.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Furthermore, prior to releasing Nachtigall from combat duty on July
1st, Shukhevich told his men "do not carry out any commands by the
Germans or others, unless ordeed to do so by our commanders. Do not
take anyone's blood on your hands. Do not allow any crimes or revenge
against our enemies the Poles and the Jews, because it's not our
matter to take part in this."
Which document is that in?
http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/2.pdf

The full book about OUN and UPA is here:

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Some Ukrainian eyewitnesses claimed that Poles committed much of the
revenge attacks (not unlikely, as most of the city's population was
Polish and many of the NKVD's victims were Poles) and even that the
Poles put on blue and yellow ribbons while doing so. It's no secret
that Lviv and western Ukraine was the electoral stronghold of Roman
Dmowski's antisemitic Polish "National Democrats." No witnesses in the
1940's suggested that Ukrainian military units were involved in any of
the massacres, although the use of the Ukrainian langiage was
widespread among the killers.
Intersting, eh? The lingua franca in Lviv was Polish, there were 160
000 Poles, 150 000 Jews and only 50 000 Ukes. Even the Ukes and Jews
spoke Polish in public stores and gatherings. And if not Polish - then
Austrian German/Yiddish. Why did the pogromschiks speak Ukrainian?
For fun? Here is from the Institute of History's book:

The Germans did not let relatives of those tortured and murdered by
the NKVD bury their dead. Instead, they forced the local Jews to do
it. According to a Polish eyewitness (pg. 66), "Jews were chased
often on all fours to the places to work with the decomposing human
remains. Amongst the Jews were women and children. Surrounding the
Jews were people with sticks and rocks in their hands. By the time
the Jews reached the corpses, they were already horribly beaten."
Another, Ukrainian eyewitness, a worker in the city's pharmaceutical
department, confirmed the above observation but added that most of the
people brutalizing the Jews were "almost without exception Poles, who
while robbing and beating the Jews put on blue and yellow ribbons and
tried to speak Ukrainian. I experienced these matters personally,
because many of the street people attacked our Jews, and even my non-
Jewish coworkers." Not a single witness interviewed in 1945-1946
claimed that Nachtigall was involved.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
And why did the tiny unarmed civilian Uke minority feel so free and
invincible against the overwhelming Jewish numbers?
Apparently they wern't alone - the Poles also participated or at the
least didn't mind.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
The Jews could
have squashed them, 3 to 1. Could it be that these pogroms of unarmed
Jewish civilains were led by the armed Polizei from Nachtigall, who
spoke Ukrainian? Doesn't it explain everything? Can any other theory
explain this?
Nachtigall numbered about 400 soldiers. So of half of them played
policeman while on leave (which is quite dubious), you are claiming
that 150,000 Jews were nomatch for 200 armed Ukrainians?
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by The Black Monk
Speaking of the accuations that suddenly surfaced in 1959, the authors
 "all the gathered "documents", "eyewtiness accounts", "memories" etc.
were published in the book, "The Truth about Oberlander." Strange,
that the fact remains that the infromation about these "facts"
appeared 18 years afterward and 14 years after their investigation by
competent organs, even though it was claimed that the information was
just "sitting" on the top and was gathered within only a month by
nonprofessional researchers and amateurs."
They then noted numerous inconsistencies in the "evidence". For
example only the names of three alleged killers from Nachtigall were
produced, one of whom confessed to killing Bartel in early July even
though Bartel was confirmed meeting with Himmler on July 25th and
executed the next day. In terms of the anti-Jewish pogroms, none of
the eyewitnesses could confirm that Nachtigall was involved, only that
Ukrainian-speaking people were
These were the Polizei.
Which we know included a lot of Ukrainian ex-refugees not linked to
Nachtigall.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
And most of them, along with all the guns and
bayonnetes, came from Nachtigall soldiers.
Based on the unproven premise that a lot of the police were Nachtigall
members.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
 What can be clearer than
that? Why would peaceful civilan Lvivan men, who had decided not to
join Hitler's forces, kill Jews and professors with their bare hands;
Let's not link the two different crimes together. I've already posted
the eyewitness accounts that the Jews were brutalized by civilian
mobs. We already know that much of the city had relatives brutally
murdered by the NKVD and that those criems were (to a large extent
unfairly) attributed by Ukrainians and Poles to "the Jews." So we
have motive by large segments of the city's civilian population.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
while extremist fascist militarist Lvivan men from Nachtigall, who had
solemnly sworn to follow Hitler anywhere, refuse participate in the
pogroms and even move out of their own home city?
Reread Shukhevich's order on Jul1st. And you've already admitted that
on July 4th he stated that German calls for Jew-killing were a
provocation that should not be followed through on, according to
documents released by the SBU. So we have a proven case of Shukhevich/
Nachtigall refusing to engage in the killing of Jews, and sepcualtion
about hypothetical cases of participation by individual Nachtigal
members on leave, not under the authority of Shukhevich.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
All the eyewitness evidence, diaries, letters home say this, from de
Zayas to Die Zeit to the Holcaust Ebcyclopedia to Piotrowsky to
Rusin.  
Rusin is a joke, as is Piotrowsky.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Why fight it?
Because the Truth is worth fighting for...

regards,

BM
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Why blame Uke civilians for more than they
actually did? Just to whitewash Yuschenko's politically-motivated
stupidity of naming Shukhevych a Hero of Ukraine?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
2008-03-04 18:49:02 UTC
Permalink
***@hotmail.com wrote:
.............................
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Can't you read?
----------------------------------------------
"When the German troops occupied Lemberg, there were about 160,000
Poles, 150,000 Jews and 50,000 Ukrainians.
In the three prisons of Lemberg Germans discovered murdered inmates.
The Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4000 prisoners due to
the rapid advance of the German troops, missing means of transport,
and a rebellion of Ukrainian nationalists.
.................................................
I will definitely read the bit that you have posted, but reserve
judgment until you have posted the complete translation.

It is however interesting that your meticulous historian appears to
leave out any mention of the collaborators, in his, according to you
unbiased account.
Also interesting is his dumping the blame for the murders on the
"rebellion of Ukrainian nationalists."
--
Rostyk
o***@hotmail.com
2008-03-05 00:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
.............................
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Can't you read?
----------------------------------------------
"When the German troops occupied Lemberg, there were about 160,000
Poles, 150,000 Jews and 50,000 Ukrainians.
In the three prisons of Lemberg Germans discovered murdered inmates.
The Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4000 prisoners due to
the rapid advance of the German troops, missing means of transport,
and a rebellion of Ukrainian nationalists.
.................................................
I will definitely read the bit that you have posted, but reserve
judgment until you have posted the complete translation.
It is however interesting that your meticulous historian appears to
leave out any mention of the collaborators, in his, according to you
unbiased account.
Well, he is not alone. All historians leave out mentioning these
mysterious "collaborators out of space" who collaborated with UPA,
Nachtigall, Gestapo, SS, NKVD and KGB. The only historian to mention
them is a gentleman from North Carolina named "Herr Rostyslaw J.
Lewyckyj" who seems to be pre-occupied with them. He, however, would
not tell anybody what he means or what they look like.
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Also interesting is his dumping the blame for the murders on the
"rebellion of Ukrainian nationalists."
Which murders? By NKVD or by Nachtigall?
ElParedon
2008-03-04 04:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM? Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always ask MTRP.
I am almost done myself.
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?
Of course it does. It is a perfect work by a responsible historian,
published in a historical journal and reprinted by the most
"In the three prisons of Lemberg, Germans discovered murdered inmates. The
Soviet NKVD did not have time to evacuate 4 000 prisoners due to the
rapid advance of the German troops, missing means of transportation, and
a rebellion by Ukrainian nationalists."
Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
Yes I do. What do you have against Die Zeit?
P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Welcome to the club. All my relatives, who hadn't moved to Moscow or
Leningrad, were murdered in Latvia, Belarus, Lithuania and Kiev.
Yes, but does the article mention who were the collaborators that helped
the NKVD compile the lists of the Ukrainian intelligentcia whom they had
in those prisons?
And does it mention similar prisons in the surrounding towns?
I will be interested in seeing your translation.
Jewish Commissars were the main torturers and killers. Read "200 years
together" by Solzhenitsyn!
captain.
2008-03-04 05:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I just found a seemingly objective and authoritative description of
http://www.zeit.de/2001/26/200126_a-lemberg.xml
How is your German, BM? Mine is very rusty. Takes me a long time to
understand the details. Can anybody help translate?
Well you could always as MTRP.
Tis odd that you didn't cross post to soc.culture.jewish or israel
Surely there are plenty of people there who would be eager to help
you out.
It surely wouldn't be an oversight? Eh?
By the way does the article discuss at all the systematic slaughter
of the Ukrainian intelligentsia carried out by the retreating Russian
armies just before the German invasion. Does it mention who were the
collaborators with the communists that helped prepare the lists of
those to be liquidated?
Oh yes. You sure know how to select the unbiased and historically
accurate accounts to present as as arguments by authority.
P.s. An uncle and an aunt of mine were murdered in prison by the Russians
in Stryj ~30 miles from Lviv during that retreat. My parents described
searching with their parents, for the corpses of their brother and sister
among the dead in the places where the Russians carried out their slaughter.
--
Rostyk
the irony is that that when the germans arrived they wasted no time in
murdering many of those very same collaborators.
m***@gmail.com
2008-02-28 01:03:36 UTC
Permalink
You mentioned Pushkin several times. Are you aware of his Secret
Journal? http://www.mipco.com/english/pushBiling.html
Great piece of literature
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-28 02:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
You mentioned Pushkin several times. Are you aware of his Secret
Journal?http://www.mipco.com/english/pushBiling.html
Great piece of literature
Hmmmm.... Looks interesting.... Thanks!
l***@cs.com
2008-02-24 18:41:09 UTC
Permalink
There is an enormous amount of bla bla bla...
No longer any need to worry...

Poland has agreed to US ABMs and will also receive additional US
military systems to help build the NATO bulward against russkie
ambitions.

Everything has been solved.
MHN Parée
2008-02-24 20:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
There is an enormous amount of bla bla bla...
No longer any need to worry...
Poland has agreed to US ABMs and will also receive additional US
military systems to help build the NATO bulward against russkie
ambitions.
Everything has been solved.
In life and after life!
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-24 20:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
There is an enormous amount of bla bla bla...
No longer any need to worry...
Poland has agreed to US ABMs and will also receive additional US
military systems to help build the NATO bulward against russkie
ambitions.
Everything has been solved.
Your work is done. You can go back to sleep now. Don't forget to turn
off the hearing aid.
MHN Parée
2008-02-24 20:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
There is an enormous amount of bla bla bla...
No longer any need to worry...
Poland has agreed to US ABMs and will also receive additional US
military systems to help build the NATO bulward against russkie
ambitions.
Everything has been solved.
bulward - Spell check before posting on Forums of educated people !
o***@hotmail.com
2008-02-24 20:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by MHN Parée
Post by l***@cs.com
There is an enormous amount of bla bla bla...
No longer any need to worry...
Poland has agreed to US ABMs and will also receive additional US
military systems to help build the NATO bulward against russkie
ambitions.
Everything has been solved.
bulward - Spell check before posting on Forums of educated people !
Bush is visiting a former British colony in Africa and gives a version
of his State of the Union speech to the local dairy workers in the
field:
- America's main goal is to bring democracy to developing countries!
The audience responds almost as enthusiastically as the US Congress:
- Bullah bullah!
- We bring peace and democracy everywhere our military goes!
- Bullah bullah!
- Our goals are altruistic!
- Bullah bullah!
- I am finished. Any questions or suggestions from the audience?
- Yes. When you go back to the clubhouse, please watch your step: this
is a dairy farm, and there is a lot of bullah bullah lying around.
ElParedon
2008-02-26 03:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Ay, ti Gritzu, Gritzu, ti slavni kozache,
Za toboyu Gritzu vsia Vraina plache.

Stepan Bandera, tebya Ukraina treba!
KvekIT
2008-02-28 17:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Well, that's certainly a case that Rosty will condemn.
Post by o***@hotmail.com
There is an enormous amount of criticism here in USA about Russia's
attitudes towards Ukriane and a couple of other ex-USSR republics.
There republics have become the excemplary Western free market
democracies, but the still-communist and imperialist Russia constantly
harasses and criticises these perectly fair and libertarian republics.
As soon as things quiet down for a week or two, Russia comes out with
new intentional provocations, aimed at provoking Ukrainian minorities
into an armed Kosovo-style civil war. Look what these Russian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/ukraine-set-to-outlaw-nato-b...
Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country
have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been
passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law
stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into
Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country
have simply closed down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it mean? Let me explain to Americans what such law would
mean if it were passed in USA. Say, you want to see a major foreign-
language movie, nominated for Oscars this year. You sit down and look
for sub-titles. But there are no subtitles! The film is dubbed into
English. By law! No language, other than English, is allowed to go
through any cinema speaker anywhere in the 50 American states! English
subtitles are not enough! Not a single word in the original language
is allowed for any foreign film!
Here in California, we have maybe 15 milion Hispanics living, most of
whom know no more than 50 words of English. Imagine 1,000 of them go
to their regular cinema on sunday to wantch the latest blockbuster
from Mexico. The movie starts - and all the Mexicans in the Mexican
film speak Nebraska English! No Spanish allowed! The 1,000 people just
get up and leave after 2 minutes.
Or imagine one of many Chinese movie theaters in San Francisco. If
they try to secretly show a Chinese movie to Chinese people in
Chinese, without first erasing all Chinese and replacing it with
English - the police will close the theater for good!
If the Cajun people try to watch a french movie in their french langue
- boom, the police will disperse the crowd and close the "criminal"
theater forever!
Imagine that Puerto Rico is one of the 51 US states. Well, no theater
in Puerto Rico will be allowed to show Spanish-language films. The
Puerto Ricans will be ordered to watch all their Spanish films in
English, even if they don't understand a word of it!
Our European readers can relate to this by imagining: show a Bergman
film in original Swedish - go to jail! Show Fellini in Italian - lose
your cinema forever!
Now let's talk about Ukriane. The Eastern/Southern half of Ukriane
speaks Russian, the other half - Ukrainian. Many people in the E-S
half don't know Ukrainian. Even in the capital of Kiev, virtually all
conversations among average people are in Russian.
Take Krymea. Since the 18th century, when Catherine the Great
conquered Krymea from the Turks, Krymea was a Russian province.
Everybody spoke Russian. Almost no Ukrainian spoken. There were quite
a few ethnic Ukrainians, but their children already spoke only Russian
and dissolved with the rest of the population.  In 1955 or so, the
former Communist ruler of Ukraine, and now ruler of all of USSR,
Khruschev got very drunk, sentimental and just gave Krimea to Ukraine
as a "present". Literally drunk! Just as John Anderson. Well, not all
of Krymea. Somebody at that party was sober enough to keep the port
city of Sevastopol. But in 1991, Yeltsin also got drunk and gave
Sevastopol as a "parting present" to Ukraine. And nobody asked the
people in Krymea what language they want to continue to speak.
Well, now the Krymean victims of chronic Communist alcoholism are
under the gun. Every measure is taken to prevent them and their
children to talk in their native language. Skinheads from the Lviv
region are bussed to harass the locals. Armed US Marines illegally
walk onto their shores, promenade around, make the locals angry, then
say "Sorry, our mistake!" and go back to their ships. In the city of
Odessa, the Lvivan skinheads are demanding the removal of all statues.
Why? Because the people on these statues are not Ukrianian-speakers.
All the German and French founders of the city - Catherine the Great,
De Ribas, Richellieu - must disappear from the city and their memory
erased, because the founding and the building of the free city of
Odessa on the Turkish land, conquered by Katherine, were illegal: the
construction was not done in the Ukrainian language. I guess a city
built by non-Ukrainians is not earthuake-safe enough for Lvivans.
Back to Krymea. Road signs in Russian have been removed. Signs are
only in Ukrainian. Most Krymeans don't know Ukrainian. Krymea is a
very mountenous region. Roads are dangerous. TVC reports a sharp
increase in the number of fatal accidents, caused by the drivers not
understanding what the signs say. I guess the government plan here is
that Russian-speakers will disappear from the face of Krymea through
fatal accidents. One speaker at a time.
There are some little problems with this elimination plan. As BM tells
us, the Russian-speaking half of Ukraine is dirty, industrial and
industrious. The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine is primarily
rural, clean, laid-back and lazy. The main work activity there is
taking trains to harass the dirty Russian-speaking half of Ukraine.
The Ukrainian-speaking half of Ukraine lives off the taxes that the
governemnt collects from the slaving and dying coal miners in the
Russian-speaking half and gives to the Ukrainian-speaking half. And if
all the Russian-speakers die in car accidents, who will feed the
Ukrainain-speakers?
Now back to the films. In the 100 or so years of the existence of
cinema, there were created maybe 100 great films in the Russian
language, many made in Ukraine by Ukrainians. But I don't recall any
good films made in the Ukrainian language ever. These great Russian-
language films, that are part of the Ukrianian histroy and culture,
can no longer be seen in their original. Fims, based on books by
Ukraine's greatest writers ever - Gogol, Ilf/Petrov, Bulgakov, etc -
will have to eliminate the author's text (in Russian) and replace it
with Uke translations, eliminating much of the originality and the
language-dependent jokes and phrases. Pushkin's poetry is now strictly
banned from the movie theaters in Krymea, Odessa, Kharkov, Kiev, etc.,
where Pushkin is the most revered person in human history!
Odessa people can no longer hear the works of their native great
writers like Ilf/Petrov. Olesha, Inber, Paustovsky, Zhvanetsky,
Kataev, etc! I, Ostap Bender, cannot be heard in my original Russian!
New Russian movies cannot be shown in the original. If a bunch of
Russian citizens, temporarily working in Kiev, hire a cinema and watch
a Russian film in its original - they are criminals. If you are
watching an American film in a public place and the police hear
English from the speakers - you are a criminal! Even if there are
Ukrainian subtitles!
The cinemas in half of Ukriane are closing. Owners and employees are
going banckrupt and unemployed. The economy is suffering. Consumers
are now buying pirated DVD copies of all films in Russian and watch
them at home. Thank god, watching foreign language films at home is
not forbidden yet. Intellectual piracy and the black market are
booming!
In other words, unlike that damn Serbia, Ukraine is increasingly
becoming more libertarian, more free-economy, more respect-for-
minorites.  It's ready for the WTO, EU and NATO now.
And with all that increasingly reasonable and sane behaviour on the
part of the Ukrainian government after it got rid of non-libertarian
Yanukovich - the Russian-speaking half of Ukriane is still not
perfectly happy!  Why?! Clearly, the Kremlin is artificially provoking
them. It's all Putin's fault! That's it! I bet he was the one who
wrote and voted for this new insane cinema law in Ukraine!
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