Discussion:
From Progressive Europe: 90 % Of Young Swedes Had Never Heard Of The Gulag
(too old to reply)
Sound of Trumpet
2007-05-09 23:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism

www.thelocal.se ^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony


Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture


Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.

A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag. This can be contrasted with the 95 percent
who knew of Auschwitz.

"Unfortunately we were not at all surprised by the findings," Ander
Hjemdahl, the founder of UOK, told The Local.

"We had a strong hunch that this would be the case having spent a few
years travelling around to various schools," he added.

Of the 1004 young Swedes involved in the nationwide poll, 43 percent
believed that communist regimes had claimed less than one million
lives. A fifth of those surveyed put the death toll at under ten
thousand. The actual figure is estimated at around 100 million.

The poll also found that 40 percent of young Swedes believed that
communism contributed to increased prosperity in the world; 22 percent
considered communism a democratic form of government; 82 percent did
not regard Belarus as a dictatorship.

This information gap has roots that date back many years, according to
Anders Hjemdahl.

"There were strategic reasons. For example, I think the Social
Democrats only won one absolute majority in the post-war years.
Therefore they had to rely on the support of smaller parties, one of
which was the communist party.

"Another reason is that a large majority of Swedish journalists are
left-wingers, many of them quite far left," he said.

Hjemdahl speculates that some historical ignorance may also be
explained by the fact that Sweden accepted Stalin's takeover of
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

"Sweden expressed its de jure recognition of the Soviet Union's World
War II annexation of the Baltic States. Nazi Germany and Franco's
Spain were the other countries to grant such strong recognition," he
said.

The organization has provoked a strong reaction in the few short hours
it published its findings in Dagens Nyheter.

"We have had lots of responses over the course of the morning. Some
aggressive communists have called us to voice their opinions.

"But we also had two victims of communism crying on the phone,
explaining that they had waited fifty years for this," said Hjemdahl.

He also added that the organization has plans to make its effort
international and is currently working on translating its material
into English.

Honorary members and contributors to UOK include former Estonian Prime
Minister Mart Laar, Latvia's EU Commissioner Sandra Kalniete and
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.

Paul O'Mahony
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-10 00:22:44 UTC
Permalink
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se ^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.

[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Michael Price
2007-05-10 04:28:22 UTC
Permalink
On May 10, 10:22 am, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I'd guess 100% of the Christian home schooled kids, evidence of
atheistic/
communist debachery.
Post by Matt Silberstein
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Another thing 10% of the Christian homeschooled would have heard
about.
Post by Matt Silberstein
http://www.beawitness.orghttp://www.darfurgenocide.orghttp://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Dan Clore
2007-05-11 01:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se ^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I wonder what percentage of either Swedes or Americans have ever heard
of the many crimes committed by capitalist regimes, such as Indonesia's
Suharto, whose genocide victims number in the millions.
--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/ref=nosim/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
*Anarcissie*
2007-05-11 01:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I wonder what percentage of either Swedes or Americans have ever heard
of the many crimes committed by capitalist regimes, such as Indonesia's
Suharto, whose genocide victims number in the millions.
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
Dan Clore
2007-05-11 03:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I wonder what percentage of either Swedes or Americans have ever heard
of the many crimes committed by capitalist regimes, such as Indonesia's
Suharto, whose genocide victims number in the millions.
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
The fact that Butt Trumpet posted it should make one skeptical. I
expressed no opinion either way on the accuracy of the claim, as I
simply do not know.
--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/ref=nosim/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-11 14:48:01 UTC
Permalink
On 10 May 2007 18:35:27 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I wonder what percentage of either Swedes or Americans have ever heard
of the many crimes committed by capitalist regimes, such as Indonesia's
Suharto, whose genocide victims number in the millions.
It is misleading to see Suharto as capitalism. Like Zaire it was a
Kleptocracy.
Post by *Anarcissie*
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
Nope. I did not actually even read it. My point was that *even if
true* it was insignificant.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
l***@cs.com
2007-05-11 14:56:50 UTC
Permalink
On May 11, 7:48 am, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 10 May 2007 18:35:27 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^| 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
Nope. I did not actually even read it. My point was that *even if
true* it was insignificant.
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Darfur is not worth reading about.
No one should care... especially you with your mindset.
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-11 16:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
On May 11, 7:48 am, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 10 May 2007 18:35:27 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^| 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
Nope. I did not actually even read it. My point was that *even if
true* it was insignificant.
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Darfur is not worth reading about.
No one should care... especially you with your mindset.
How so? And why do you find genocide irrelevant?
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
l***@cs.com
2007-05-11 17:01:27 UTC
Permalink
On May 11, 9:36 am, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Darfur is not worth reading about.
No one should care... especially you with your mindset.
How so? And why do you find genocide irrelevant?
Matt Silberstein
The same way you did, rodent; by saying it's not important.
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-11 17:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
On May 11, 9:36 am, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Darfur is not worth reading about.
No one should care... especially you with your mindset.
How so? And why do you find genocide irrelevant?
Matt Silberstein
The same way you did, rodent; by saying it's not important.
I did no such thing, but you have now snipped out what I did say so
you could make a dishonest point. The Nazi Young wanted to make a
point about god-less Swedes and his point was not relevant.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-11 17:37:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 May 2007 17:35:34 GMT, in alt.atheism , Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by l***@cs.com
On May 11, 9:36 am, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Darfur is not worth reading about.
No one should care... especially you with your mindset.
How so? And why do you find genocide irrelevant?
Matt Silberstein
The same way you did, rodent; by saying it's not important.
I did no such thing, but you have now snipped out what I did say so
you could make a dishonest point. The Nazi Young wanted to make a
point about god-less Swedes and his point was not relevant.
Sorry, I had my bigots confused, it was SoT that started this thread,
not Young. My error.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Brixton Mortar
2007-05-11 23:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 10 May 2007 18:35:27 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I wonder what percentage of either Swedes or Americans have ever heard
of the many crimes committed by capitalist regimes, such as Indonesia's
Suharto, whose genocide victims number in the millions.
It is misleading to see Suharto as capitalism. Like Zaire it was a
Kleptocracy.
Yeah yeah yeah. Mao and Stalin are classed as socialist, but when anyone
tries to point out that some of the most deadly regimes in history were
avowedly anti-communist, then suddenly there are myriad subdivisions of
capitalism. You have double standards on a grand scale.

The simple fact is that some governments become despotisms whatever their
supposed political bent. It's precisely the Cold War double standards that
you seem to hold that have led to so many such regimes being supported by
superpowers claiming that they may be bastards, but they are our bastards
so that's OK. It isn't. It matters not a damn whether somebody is beaten
to death by religious fundamentalists, worked to death by Stalinists in a
gulag, or disappeared by a US backed Latin American President/General.
Dead is dead.

Personally I think it stinks to play politics with the issue, but whilst
right wingers in the USA continue to treat the issue of mass murder by
depots as something to misrepresent in order to make political capital
from rather than as a cause for sorrow or something that should be studied
so that it can be prevented from happening again, then those of us who
remain sane will have to respond simply to prevent all alternative views
from being bullied out of sight as they largely have within the USA.
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by *Anarcissie*
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
Nope. I did not actually even read it. My point was that *even if
true* it was insignificant.
That I agree with one hundred percent.

You can make such surveys appear to show pretty much anything you want.
Usually the data is actually inconclusive and the only way of getting the
survey published is to push the envelope somewhat.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-11 23:32:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 May 2007 00:00:15 +0100, in alt.atheism , Brixton Mortar
Post by Brixton Mortar
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 10 May 2007 18:35:27 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 9 May 2007 16:14:45 -0700, in alt.atheism , Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
I wonder what % of young Americans have heard of the gulags. I wonder
what % of Christian home schooled young Americans have heard of the
gulags.
I wonder what percentage of either Swedes or Americans have ever heard
of the many crimes committed by capitalist regimes, such as Indonesia's
Suharto, whose genocide victims number in the millions.
It is misleading to see Suharto as capitalism. Like Zaire it was a
Kleptocracy.
Yeah yeah yeah. Mao and Stalin are classed as socialist, but when anyone
tries to point out that some of the most deadly regimes in history were
avowedly anti-communist, then suddenly there are myriad subdivisions of
capitalism. You have double standards on a grand scale.
Interesting how *I* have a double standard because *others* have
different views. My standard, though, is not so double. Suharto did
not promote a market driven system, he used political power to give
economic benefit to his family and his allies. My standard is to look
at the system involved and describe that system rather than seeing
which of two (and only two) categories I can use.
Post by Brixton Mortar
The simple fact is that some governments become despotisms whatever their
supposed political bent. It's precisely the Cold War double standards that
you seem to hold that have led to so many such regimes being supported by
superpowers claiming that they may be bastards, but they are our bastards
so that's OK.
And now you have decided that I think that Suharto was OK. You seem to
be using something like the standards you assert about others.
Post by Brixton Mortar
It isn't. It matters not a damn whether somebody is beaten
to death by religious fundamentalists, worked to death by Stalinists in a
gulag, or disappeared by a US backed Latin American President/General.
Dead is dead.
And you have decided that I disagree with this. What punishment do I
get for disagreeing with you?
Post by Brixton Mortar
Personally I think it stinks to play politics with the issue, but whilst
right wingers in the USA continue to treat the issue of mass murder by
depots as something to misrepresent in order to make political capital
from rather than as a cause for sorrow or something that should be studied
so that it can be prevented from happening again, then those of us who
remain sane will have to respond simply to prevent all alternative views
from being bullied out of sight as they largely have within the USA.
I see. Somehow now I am a right winger and so it is ok for you to use
"my" standards against me.
Post by Brixton Mortar
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by *Anarcissie*
You all seem to accept this news clipping without
any further evidence.
Nope. I did not actually even read it. My point was that *even if
true* it was insignificant.
That I agree with one hundred percent.
You can make such surveys appear to show pretty much anything you want.
Usually the data is actually inconclusive and the only way of getting the
survey published is to push the envelope somewhat.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
2007-05-14 09:08:57 UTC
Permalink
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.

Regards,
/P

http://lettonica.blogspot.com/
*Anarcissie*
2007-05-15 03:14:31 UTC
Permalink
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
l***@cs.com
2007-05-15 05:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?

"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
*Anarcissie*
2007-05-16 01:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?
"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
Don't complain. Correct it, and provide citations so it
will stay corrected.

I myself have never heard that Latvia was any kind of
refuge for Jews, whereas some Danish Jews were able to
escape to Sweden, however pro-Nazi Sweden may have
been. But, who knows? You're invited to correct
Wikipedia's errors.
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-16 01:53:21 UTC
Permalink
On 15 May 2007 18:34:56 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by l***@cs.com
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?
"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
Don't complain. Correct it, and provide citations so it
will stay corrected.
I myself have never heard that Latvia was any kind of
refuge for Jews, whereas some Danish Jews were able to
escape to Sweden, however pro-Nazi Sweden may have
been. But, who knows? You're invited to correct
Wikipedia's errors.
Latvia was no kind of refuge for the Jews. His complaint has to do
with the exchange of occupiers from the Nazis to the Soviets. Neither
group was good for the Jews but the Nazis were obviously worse.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
*Anarcissie*
2007-05-16 15:30:38 UTC
Permalink
On May 15, 9:53 pm, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 15 May 2007 18:34:56 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?
"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
Don't complain. Correct it, and provide citations so it
will stay corrected.
I myself have never heard that Latvia was any kind of
refuge for Jews, whereas some Danish Jews were able to
escape to Sweden, however pro-Nazi Sweden may have
been. But, who knows? You're invited to correct
Wikipedia's errors.
Latvia was no kind of refuge for the Jews. His complaint has to do
with the exchange of occupiers from the Nazis to the Soviets. Neither
group was good for the Jews but the Nazis were obviously worse.
His complaint included the following, which I found rather
surprising: "Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich." So I looked it up in Wikipedia, and posted
the URL of what I found. He can correct the page if he has
better information. What's _your_ problem?
Matt Silberstein
2007-05-16 15:39:23 UTC
Permalink
On 16 May 2007 08:30:38 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 15, 9:53 pm, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 15 May 2007 18:34:56 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by l***@cs.com
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?
"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
Don't complain. Correct it, and provide citations so it
will stay corrected.
I myself have never heard that Latvia was any kind of
refuge for Jews, whereas some Danish Jews were able to
escape to Sweden, however pro-Nazi Sweden may have
been. But, who knows? You're invited to correct
Wikipedia's errors.
Latvia was no kind of refuge for the Jews. His complaint has to do
with the exchange of occupiers from the Nazis to the Soviets. Neither
group was good for the Jews but the Nazis were obviously worse.
His complaint included the following, which I found rather
surprising: "Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich." So I looked it up in Wikipedia, and posted
the URL of what I found. He can correct the page if he has
better information. What's _your_ problem?
I think you have confused two different posters, Peteris and Lorad.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
2007-05-17 09:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 16 May 2007 08:30:38 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 15, 9:53 pm, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 15 May 2007 18:34:56 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?
"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
Don't complain. Correct it, and provide citations so it
will stay corrected.
I myself have never heard that Latvia was any kind of
refuge for Jews, whereas some Danish Jews were able to
escape to Sweden, however pro-Nazi Sweden may have
been. But, who knows? You're invited to correct
Wikipedia's errors.
Latvia was no kind of refuge for the Jews. His complaint has to do
with the exchange of occupiers from the Nazis to the Soviets. Neither
group was good for the Jews but the Nazis were obviously worse.
His complaint included the following, which I found rather
surprising: "Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich." So I looked it up in Wikipedia, and posted
the URL of what I found. He can correct the page if he has
better information. What's _your_ problem?
I think you have confused two different posters, Peteris and Lorad.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
I'm not in the mood and don't have time to get into this now,
unfortunately, but I am obviously talking about Latvia _prior_ to the
occupation in June 1940; Latvia did take in Jews fleeing Poland.

Once the USSR occupied Latvia, the local Jewish community was
decimated by deportations and liquidations, and then the Nazis came
and murdered most of the remaining Jews (with some local help). There
was certainly considerable anti-Semitism in Latvia before the war, as
there was most everywhere -- but by comparison to the rest of Eastern
Europe, Estonia and Latvia stand out as rather civilized states in
that regard.

The Wikipedia article is a bad article -- for instance, it omits the
fact that more Jews were deported by Stalin, _per capita_ than people
from any other ethnic group. Here are some sources for better
information --

http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/frank_gordon.htm

http://www.li.lv/old/n_minorities/jews.htm

Regards,
/P

http://lettonica.blogspot.com/
*Anarcissie*
2007-05-18 17:43:05 UTC
Permalink
On May 17, 5:47 am, "Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 16 May 2007 08:30:38 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
On May 15, 9:53 pm, Matt Silberstein
Post by Matt Silberstein
On 15 May 2007 18:34:56 -0700, in alt.atheism , *Anarcissie*
Post by *Anarcissie*
Post by l***@cs.com
On May 14, 5:08 am, "Peteris Cedrinð (Peteris Cedrins)"
Post by Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins)
I have Technicolor childhood memories of most Swedes not only not
knowing what was going down just across the water, but of most Swedes
not having the palest idea of what was across the water -- if they
knew, they mostly averted their eyes. Mostly it was "lettiska -- huh?"
On a clear day, you can see Courland from Gotland. You had great
leftist writers going to Latvia on tours to write about its "complex
history" whilst eating KGB bread, and once the nation rose in the late
1980s they were more wounded than happy -- it spoiled their little
Soviet dreamland. The Queen of Sweden had to invite the surviving
Legionnaires her Kingdom had handed to the Soviets over for lunch.
Latvians are fond of Sweden, but most of us think of Swedes as
hypocritical moralists. Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich. For about half a century, Sweden pretended we didn't
exist. When the Soviets occupied Latvia, Sweden handed over the keys
to the Embassy so fast you could hardly hear the Kremlin ask for them.
Same with the soldiers -- except that Sweden handed them over without
even being asked.
You may wish to correct Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Latvia
Who is the author of that oustanding piece of misinformation...?
"After the Liberation"... indeed.
The soviet liberation of Latvian citizens (including Jewish) - from
their lives....?
Along with about 20 million other eastern europeans...
Don't complain. Correct it, and provide citations so it
will stay corrected.
I myself have never heard that Latvia was any kind of
refuge for Jews, whereas some Danish Jews were able to
escape to Sweden, however pro-Nazi Sweden may have
been. But, who knows? You're invited to correct
Wikipedia's errors.
Latvia was no kind of refuge for the Jews. His complaint has to do
with the exchange of occupiers from the Nazis to the Soviets. Neither
group was good for the Jews but the Nazis were obviously worse.
His complaint included the following, which I found rather
surprising: "Latvia took in fleeing Jews -- Sweden aided
the Third Reich." So I looked it up in Wikipedia, and posted
the URL of what I found. He can correct the page if he has
better information. What's _your_ problem?
I think you have confused two different posters, Peteris and Lorad.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
I'm not in the mood and don't have time to get into this now,
unfortunately, but I am obviously talking about Latvia _prior_ to the
occupation in June 1940; Latvia did take in Jews fleeing Poland.
Once the USSR occupied Latvia, the local Jewish community was
decimated by deportations and liquidations, and then the Nazis came
and murdered most of the remaining Jews (with some local help). There
was certainly considerable anti-Semitism in Latvia before the war, as
there was most everywhere -- but by comparison to the rest of Eastern
Europe, Estonia and Latvia stand out as rather civilized states in
that regard.
Eastern Europe? You might want to check out how many Jews
were taken out of Bulgaria. However, I don't think Latvians had a
lot of choice in the matter. I was just surprised at your rather
invidious comparison between the Swedes and the Latvians.
The Swedes actually did manage to save a few Jews, not only
on their own territory, but through Raoul Wallenberg, in Hungary
as well -- and possibly elsewhere. Or doesn't that count for
some reason?
Post by Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
The Wikipedia article is a bad article -- for instance, it omits the
fact that more Jews were deported by Stalin, _per capita_ than people
from any other ethnic group. Here are some sources for better
information --
http://vip.latnet.lv/lpra/frank_gordon.htm
http://www.li.lv/old/n_minorities/jews.htm
Regards,
/P
http://lettonica.blogspot.com/
If you have time to write on Usenet, why don't you
have time to correct the Wikipedia article?

l***@cs.com
2007-05-10 03:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag. This can be contrasted with the 95 percent
who knew of Auschwitz.
"Unfortunately we were not at all surprised by the findings," Ander
Hjemdahl, the founder of UOK, told The Local.
"We had a strong hunch that this would be the case having spent a few
years travelling around to various schools," he added.
Of the 1004 young Swedes involved in the nationwide poll, 43 percent
believed that communist regimes had claimed less than one million
lives. A fifth of those surveyed put the death toll at under ten
thousand. The actual figure is estimated at around 100 million.
The poll also found that 40 percent of young Swedes believed that
communism contributed to increased prosperity in the world; 22 percent
considered communism a democratic form of government; 82 percent did
not regard Belarus as a dictatorship.
This information gap has roots that date back many years, according to
Anders Hjemdahl.
"There were strategic reasons. For example, I think the Social
Democrats only won one absolute majority in the post-war years.
Therefore they had to rely on the support of smaller parties, one of
which was the communist party.
"Another reason is that a large majority of Swedish journalists are
left-wingers, many of them quite far left," he said.
Hjemdahl speculates that some historical ignorance may also be
explained by the fact that Sweden accepted Stalin's takeover of
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
"Sweden expressed its de jure recognition of the Soviet Union's World
War II annexation of the Baltic States. Nazi Germany and Franco's
Spain were the other countries to grant such strong recognition," he
said.
The organization has provoked a strong reaction in the few short hours
it published its findings in Dagens Nyheter.
"We have had lots of responses over the course of the morning. Some
aggressive communists have called us to voice their opinions.
"But we also had two victims of communism crying on the phone,
explaining that they had waited fifty years for this," said Hjemdahl.
He also added that the organization has plans to make its effort
international and is currently working on translating its material
into English.
Honorary members and contributors to UOK include former Estonian Prime
Minister Mart Laar, Latvia's EU Commissioner Sandra Kalniete and
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.
Paul O'Mahony
It's that way in much of western Europe.
When the victorous Allied Forces conquered the german reich, they
specifically chose socialists or communist to conduct
institutionalized 're-education' within their areas of authority.
They did this to stamp out hitlerian philosophy.

The trouble is that by doing so, they also established the pre-
eminence of an alien-socialist zeit-geist in the resultant post-war
Europe.

(An additonal problem was that the soviet union imposed its own form
of socialism - communism - on the rest of Europe. Thus it is not
overly surprising to me that Europe is today, a very screwed up
place.)

The result of all of that inculcated socialism is that today's
european kids are only educated about Socialist concerns. The enemy of
Socialism was nazism, and it is the victims of nazism that are
continually resurrected as exemplars of the evil of nazism.

It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself. The fact that a small percentage of Swedish kids
know about it at all is probably only due to advanced studies - or
more likely - to the transmittal of family knowledge of Socialist mass
murders.
brique
2007-05-10 04:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag. This can be contrasted with the 95 percent
who knew of Auschwitz.
"Unfortunately we were not at all surprised by the findings," Ander
Hjemdahl, the founder of UOK, told The Local.
"We had a strong hunch that this would be the case having spent a few
years travelling around to various schools," he added.
Of the 1004 young Swedes involved in the nationwide poll, 43 percent
believed that communist regimes had claimed less than one million
lives. A fifth of those surveyed put the death toll at under ten
thousand. The actual figure is estimated at around 100 million.
The poll also found that 40 percent of young Swedes believed that
communism contributed to increased prosperity in the world; 22 percent
considered communism a democratic form of government; 82 percent did
not regard Belarus as a dictatorship.
This information gap has roots that date back many years, according to
Anders Hjemdahl.
"There were strategic reasons. For example, I think the Social
Democrats only won one absolute majority in the post-war years.
Therefore they had to rely on the support of smaller parties, one of
which was the communist party.
"Another reason is that a large majority of Swedish journalists are
left-wingers, many of them quite far left," he said.
Hjemdahl speculates that some historical ignorance may also be
explained by the fact that Sweden accepted Stalin's takeover of
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
"Sweden expressed its de jure recognition of the Soviet Union's World
War II annexation of the Baltic States. Nazi Germany and Franco's
Spain were the other countries to grant such strong recognition," he
said.
The organization has provoked a strong reaction in the few short hours
it published its findings in Dagens Nyheter.
"We have had lots of responses over the course of the morning. Some
aggressive communists have called us to voice their opinions.
"But we also had two victims of communism crying on the phone,
explaining that they had waited fifty years for this," said Hjemdahl.
He also added that the organization has plans to make its effort
international and is currently working on translating its material
into English.
Honorary members and contributors to UOK include former Estonian Prime
Minister Mart Laar, Latvia's EU Commissioner Sandra Kalniete and
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.
Paul O'Mahony
It's that way in much of western Europe.
When the victorous Allied Forces conquered the german reich, they
specifically chose socialists or communist to conduct
institutionalized 're-education' within their areas of authority.
They did this to stamp out hitlerian philosophy.

The trouble is that by doing so, they also established the pre-
eminence of an alien-socialist zeit-geist in the resultant post-war
Europe.

(An additonal problem was that the soviet union imposed its own form
of socialism - communism - on the rest of Europe. Thus it is not
overly surprising to me that Europe is today, a very screwed up
place.)

The result of all of that inculcated socialism is that today's
european kids are only educated about Socialist concerns. The enemy of
Socialism was nazism, and it is the victims of nazism that are
continually resurrected as exemplars of the evil of nazism.

It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself. The fact that a small percentage of Swedish kids
know about it at all is probably only due to advanced studies - or
more likely - to the transmittal of family knowledge of Socialist mass
murders.

One small problem with your theory.... Sweden was not conquered, or
liberated, or de-nazified or had anything much at all 'imposed' upon it by
the victors. During WW2 Sweden was neutral, but often accused of being
pro-german. It certainly carried on trading with Germany, as did
Switzerland. Spain is part of Europe too, and was very pro-nazi and also
avoided having 'socialism' imposed upon it after the war.
Parsifal
2007-05-10 05:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^| 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag. This can be contrasted with the 95 percent
who knew of Auschwitz.
"Unfortunately we were not at all surprised by the findings," Ander
Hjemdahl, the founder of UOK, told The Local.
"We had a strong hunch that this would be the case having spent a few
years travelling around to various schools," he added.
Of the 1004 young Swedes involved in the nationwide poll, 43 percent
believed that communist regimes had claimed less than one million
lives. A fifth of those surveyed put the death toll at under ten
thousand. The actual figure is estimated at around 100 million.
The poll also found that 40 percent of young Swedes believed that
communism contributed to increased prosperity in the world; 22 percent
considered communism a democratic form of government; 82 percent did
not regard Belarus as a dictatorship.
This information gap has roots that date back many years, according to
Anders Hjemdahl.
"There were strategic reasons. For example, I think the Social
Democrats only won one absolute majority in the post-war years.
Therefore they had to rely on the support of smaller parties, one of
which was the communist party.
"Another reason is that a large majority of Swedish journalists are
left-wingers, many of them quite far left," he said.
Hjemdahl speculates that some historical ignorance may also be
explained by the fact that Sweden accepted Stalin's takeover of
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
"Sweden expressed its de jure recognition of the Soviet Union's World
War II annexation of the Baltic States. Nazi Germany and Franco's
Spain were the other countries to grant such strong recognition," he
said.
The organization has provoked a strong reaction in the few short hours
it published its findings in Dagens Nyheter.
"We have had lots of responses over the course of the morning. Some
aggressive communists have called us to voice their opinions.
"But we also had two victims of communism crying on the phone,
explaining that they had waited fifty years for this," said Hjemdahl.
He also added that the organization has plans to make its effort
international and is currently working on translating its material
into English.
Honorary members and contributors to UOK include former Estonian Prime
Minister Mart Laar, Latvia's EU Commissioner Sandra Kalniete and
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.
Paul O'Mahony
It's that way in much of western Europe.
When the victorous Allied Forces conquered the german reich, they
specifically chose socialists or communist to conduct
institutionalized 're-education' within their areas of authority.
They did this to stamp out hitlerian philosophy.
The trouble is that by doing so, they also established the pre-
eminence of an alien-socialist zeit-geist in the resultant post-war
Europe.
(An additonal problem was that the soviet union imposed its own form
of socialism - communism - on the rest of Europe. Thus it is not
overly surprising to me that Europe is today, a very screwed up
place.)
The result of all of that inculcated socialism is that today's
european kids are only educated about Socialist concerns. The enemy of
Socialism was nazism, and it is the victims of nazism that are
continually resurrected as exemplars of the evil of nazism.
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
How many people died because of socialism?
There as much relation between socialism and what was called communism
in USSR and China as between national-socialism and the current
political situation in the USA.
l***@cs.com
2007-05-10 08:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Parsifal
Post by l***@cs.com
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
How many people died because of socialism?
Everyone killed in the Spanish Civil War, WWII, the Korean War,
Vietnam, and everyone killed by the post WWII soviets, the red
chinese, the Pathet Lao, and Pol Pot... for example.
Post by Parsifal
There as much relation between socialism and what was called communism
in USSR and China as between national-socialism and the current
political situation in the USA
Naw.. that's a typical bit of misinformation.
The two are sides of the same coin.

Just because the most virulent form of socialism - communism - turned
out to be so monstrously murderous doesn't mean that I can let you run
away from their bloody deeds.

'Social democraticism':
""Wherever the proletariat, organized in a class party -- which is to
say a party of revolution —- can penetrate an elective assembly;
wherever it can penetrate an enemy citadel, it has not only the right,
but the obligation to make a breach and set up a socialist garrison in
the capitalist fortress! But in those places where it penetrates not
by the will of the workers, not by socialist force; there where it
penetrates only with the consent, on the invitation, and consequently
in the interests of the capitalist class, socialism should not enter."
Jules Guesde's speech to the 1899 General Congress of French socialist
organizations"

"The Russian Revolution of 1905 had the effect of radicalizing many
socialist parties, as did a number of general strikes.."

"However, by 1910.. From this point onwards then it is possible to
speak of there being a reformist right, a centre and a revolutionary
left within the (Socialist) International. "

The Second (Socialist) International.. aka.. 'The Great Big Socialist
Diaspora' :
...Saw the mass name changes of Socialists leading to their various
monikers today:

"The following parties and movements were invited to the First
Congress of the Communist International in March 1919 :

The Comintern membership card of Karl Kilbom Spartacus League
(Germany)
The Communist Party (Bolshevik) Russia
The Communist Party of German Austria
The Hungarian Communist Workers' Party, in power during Béla Kun's
Hungarian Soviet Republic
The Finnish CP
The Communist Party of Poland
The Communist Party of Estonia
The Latvian CP
The Lithuanian CP
The Belarusian CP
The Ukrainian CP
The revolutionary elements of the Czech social democracy
The Bulgarian Social-Democratic Party (Tesnjaki)
The Romanian SDP
The Left-wing of the Serbian SDP
The Social Democratic Left Party of Sweden
The Norwegian Labour Party
For Denmark, the Klassenkampen group
The Communist Party of Holland
The revolutionary elements of the Workers Party of Belgium (who would
create the Communist Party of Belgium in 1921)
The groups and organisations within the French socialist and
syndicalist movements
The social-democratic Left of Switzerland
the Italian Socialist Party
The revolutionary elements of the Spanish SP
The revolutionary elements of the Portuguese SP
The British socialist parties (particularly the current represented by
John MacLean)
The Socialist Labour Party (Britain)
Industrial Workers of the World (Britain)
The revolutionary elements of the workers' organisations of Ireland
The revolutionary elements among the shop stewards (Britain)
The Socialist Labor Party of the United States
The Left elements of the Socialist Party of America (the tendency
represented by Eugene Debs and the League for Socialist Propaganda)
IWW (United States)
IWW (Australia)
Workers' International Industrial Union (United States)
The Socialist groups of Tokyo and Yokohama (Japan, represented by
Comrade Katayama)
The Socialist Youth International (represented by Willi Münzenberg) "

Currently the The Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD –
Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands) is in a coalition government
in Germany...

While in Britain, the Socialist Labour Party in the person of Tony
Blair controls the government.

Socialist Politics in Europe?
Here are 218 'comrades' for your perusal:

"The Party of European Socialists (PES) is a European political party
whose members are 33 social democratic, socialist and labour parties
of the European Union member states as well as Norway.

PES was founded in 1992 in The Hague to succeed the Confederation of
Socialist Parties of the European Community. It is an associated
organisation of the Socialist International. Ecosy is the youth
organisation of PES.

Its current president is the former Danish Prime Minister Poul Nyrup
Rasmussen. He was re-elected at the 2006 PES Congress in Porto,
Portugal (8th December 2006) for a term lasting until June, 2009.

With 218 members the PES's "Socialist Group" is the second largest
group in the European Parliament. Group president is the German social
democrat Martin Schulz. From July 2004 to January 2007, the president
of the parliament was the Spanish socialist Josep Borrell.

Seven members of the European Commission are members of the PES: Vice
president Günter Verheugen (SPD), vice president Margot Wallström
(SAP), Commissioner for monetary affairs Joaquín Almunia (PSOE),
commissioner for regional policy Danuta Hübner (SLD), commissioner for
taxation László Kovács (MSZP), commissioner for trade Peter Mandelson
(Labour) and commissioner for employment and social affairs Vladimír
Špidla (ČSSD).

PES members in the European Council are Tony Blair (United Kingdom),
Alfred Gusenbauer (Austria), Gediminas Kirkilas (Lithuania), Ferenc
Gyurcsány (Hungary), José Sócrates (Portugal) and José Luis Zapatero
(Spain)."

Like I said: " associated organisation of the Socialist International
" Just like Stalin's murderers were.
Nosterill
2007-05-10 12:16:28 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by l***@cs.com
While in Britain, the Socialist Labour Party in the person of Tony
Blair controls the government.
<snip>
Post by l***@cs.com
PES members in the European Council are Tony Blair (United Kingdom),
Alfred Gusenbauer (Austria), Gediminas Kirkilas (Lithuania), Ferenc
Gyurcsány (Hungary), José Sócrates (Portugal) and José Luis Zapatero
(Spain)."
Tony Blair socialist?????? Yes, I know that the Labour party is
nominally socialist but Blair never was. Remember who he threw his
weight behind in the last US presidential election?
l***@cs.com
2007-05-10 16:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nosterill
<snip>
Post by l***@cs.com
While in Britain, the Socialist Labour Party in the person of Tony
Blair controls the government.
<snip>
Post by l***@cs.com
PES members in the European Council are Tony Blair (United Kingdom),
Alfred Gusenbauer (Austria), Gediminas Kirkilas (Lithuania), Ferenc
Gyurcsány (Hungary), José Sócrates (Portugal) and José Luis Zapatero
(Spain)."
Tony Blair socialist?????? Yes, I know that the Labour party is
nominally socialist but Blair never was. Remember who he threw his
weight behind in the last US presidential election?
There are always rogues in any population.

Some people have said that Yeltsin wasn't a communist...
Chiraq wasn't identifiably 'Center Right'..
And that Bush isn't much of a Republican, when compared to traditional
US Republicans.

It is the control of any existing power structure that is key to
directing the course of societies, and also my major complaint
regarding socialist governments - they are overly prone to
totalitarian rule imposed by small cliques of self-interested
individuals. Call it political hijacking.

The first and most dramatic occurence of Socialism offers proof. If
the original socialists of tsarist russia had ever imagined that their
political party eventually would starve 12 million Ukrainian
civilians to death and establish death camps ultimately destroying
some 60 million of their fellows - they would have lynched Lenin on
the spot.
Brixton Mortar
2007-05-11 00:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Nosterill
<snip>
Post by l***@cs.com
While in Britain, the Socialist Labour Party in the person of Tony
Blair controls the government.
<snip>
Post by l***@cs.com
PES members in the European Council are Tony Blair (United Kingdom),
Alfred Gusenbauer (Austria), Gediminas Kirkilas (Lithuania), Ferenc
Gyurcsány (Hungary), José Sócrates (Portugal) and José Luis Zapatero
(Spain)."
Tony Blair socialist?????? Yes, I know that the Labour party is
nominally socialist but Blair never was. Remember who he threw his
weight behind in the last US presidential election?
There are always rogues in any population.
Some people have said that Yeltsin wasn't a communist...
Some people might operate on the basis that a former communist who
promotes relaxation or regulation and radical privatisation of publicly
owned industries might just possibly have moved beyond the bounds of any
political philosophy that might remotely be called communist. He was a
communist, then he became a centrist, just as Putin ceased to be a
communist and became something perilously close to fascist. Some people
might also say that you are a ultra right wing fuckwit who considers that
political debate consists of claiming that anyone who disagrees with you
is a socialist/communist/Marxist/liberal and is therefore condoning every
single murder committed by every government you disagree with. Some might
even say that it's the sort of argument that most people grow out of
before they are ten years old.
Post by l***@cs.com
Chiraq wasn't identifiably 'Center Right'..
No. Chirac was small "c" conservative by nature, moderate on most social
issues, and centre right on economics.
Post by l***@cs.com
And that Bush isn't much of a Republican, when compared to traditional
US Republicans.
That I'd agree with. He's not identifiably much of any anything.
Post by l***@cs.com
It is the control of any existing power structure that is key to
directing the course of societies, and also my major complaint
regarding socialist governments - they are overly prone to
totalitarian rule imposed by small cliques of self-interested
individuals. Call it political hijacking.
Really. Do you have any examples to back up that claim? Or are you simply
claiming that since you are going to define any government as socialist if
it's hijacked by a clique, then it follows that your statement is correct
even though it requires a totally new definition of most of the words
used.
Post by l***@cs.com
The first and most dramatic occurence of Socialism offers proof. If
the original socialists of tsarist russia had ever imagined that their
political party eventually would starve 12 million Ukrainian
civilians to death and establish death camps ultimately destroying
some 60 million of their fellows - they would have lynched Lenin on
the spot.
Ever heard of the Mensheviks? You can't blame them for Stalin.

How about Cuba? Is there any significant difference there between what
went on under Batista and what goes on under Castro. It's just a different
clique. A clique that no longer operates primarily to bolster US financial
interests, but otherwise no more or less repressive than it's predecessor.
Which doesn't make it a good government, but implies that the problem
isn't simply the politics of the government.

I don't see any evidence of death camps having been found in Nicaragua
under the Sandinistas. Yet next door in Guatemala, Honduras and El
Salvador, avowedly anti-communist governments became the playthings of
small cliques of bloodthirsty crooks. So in Central America it seems that
being an anti-communist government leads to precisely the problems you
claim socialist governments are particularly prone to.

How about Indonesia under Soekarno? The Congo under various regimes? Are
you claiming that Saddam Hussein, who began his rule by murdering just
about every known communist or socialist in Iraq, was head of a socialist
party?

This is a common myth. Particularly prevalent in the USA. In fact pretty
much any form of government can be taken over by a small clique of
villains. Just as pretty much any type of government can commit mass
murder of it's own population. The fact that there are a large number of
books and web sites misrepresenting facts by attributing all deaths by
famine or natural disaster as being due to government action if that
government is communist or socialist, and ignoring the most brutal right
wing regime of modern times as if it didn't exist (Soekarno), is possibly
an excuse for ignorance. However at least you should make some basic
effort to establish a few genuine facts, and establish some consensus
definitions of your terms before drawing wild conclusions. Just because it
might play well to a bunch of drunken rednecks leaning against a bar in
Butt Ugly, Idaho (or Moseley Crescent, Surbiton), doesn't mean you can
state it as incontrovertible to an international "audience" on Usenet.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Parsifal
2007-05-10 21:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Parsifal
Post by l***@cs.com
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
How many people died because of socialism?
Everyone killed in the Spanish Civil War, WWII, the Korean War,
Vietnam, and everyone killed by the post WWII soviets, the red
chinese, the Pathet Lao, and Pol Pot... for example.
Nothing to do with "socialism", but thanks for playing.
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Parsifal
There as much relation between socialism and what was called communism
in USSR and China as between national-socialism and the current
political situation in the USA
Naw.. that's a typical bit of misinformation.
The two are sides of the same coin.
You link socialism with communism and totalitarism, I link republicans
with far-right.
Post by l***@cs.com
Just because the most virulent form of socialism - communism - turned
out to be so monstrously murderous doesn't mean that I can let you run
away from their bloody deeds.
Communism is not the "most virulent form of socialism". Thanks for
playing, though.

...
Post by l***@cs.com
Seven members of the European Commission are members of the PES: Vice
president Günter Verheugen (SPD), vice president Margot Wallström
(SAP), Commissioner for monetary affairs Joaquín Almunia (PSOE),
commissioner for regional policy Danuta Hübner (SLD), commissioner for
taxation László Kovács (MSZP), commissioner for trade Peter Mandelson
(Labour) and commissioner for employment and social affairs Vladimír
Špidla (ČSSD).
PES members in the European Council are Tony Blair (United Kingdom),
Alfred Gusenbauer (Austria), Gediminas Kirkilas (Lithuania), Ferenc
Gyurcsány (Hungary), José Sócrates (Portugal) and José Luis Zapatero
(Spain)."
And what's wrong with that?
Post by l***@cs.com
Like I said: " associated organisation of the Socialist International
" Just like Stalin's murderers were.
Spoken like a true moronican with no clue. Typical.
Brixton Mortar
2007-05-11 00:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Parsifal
Post by l***@cs.com
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
How many people died because of socialism?
Everyone killed in the Spanish Civil War,
Excuse me. How in hell do you work that out?
Post by l***@cs.com
WWII,
That would be the WW2 that was started by which nation invading where?
Post by l***@cs.com
the Korean War,
I'll sort of buy that one...though I'd claim it as one of the many sins of
Maoism.
Post by l***@cs.com
Vietnam,
Again you don't seem to have quite understood the history. Vietnam began
as an anti-colonial struggle against the French. The Viet Cong became
firmly established only after the war had begun.
Post by l***@cs.com
and everyone killed by the post WWII soviets, the red
chinese, the Pathet Lao, and Pol Pot... for example.
All of which I'll accept provided you mean to define socialism as a set of
political systems that includes most forms of dictatorial communism and
not actually socialism at all.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Parsifal
2007-05-10 05:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se^| 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag. This can be contrasted with the 95 percent
who knew of Auschwitz.
"Unfortunately we were not at all surprised by the findings," Ander
Hjemdahl, the founder of UOK, told The Local.
"We had a strong hunch that this would be the case having spent a few
years travelling around to various schools," he added.
Of the 1004 young Swedes involved in the nationwide poll, 43 percent
believed that communist regimes had claimed less than one million
lives. A fifth of those surveyed put the death toll at under ten
thousand. The actual figure is estimated at around 100 million.
The poll also found that 40 percent of young Swedes believed that
communism contributed to increased prosperity in the world; 22 percent
considered communism a democratic form of government; 82 percent did
not regard Belarus as a dictatorship.
This information gap has roots that date back many years, according to
Anders Hjemdahl.
"There were strategic reasons. For example, I think the Social
Democrats only won one absolute majority in the post-war years.
Therefore they had to rely on the support of smaller parties, one of
which was the communist party.
"Another reason is that a large majority of Swedish journalists are
left-wingers, many of them quite far left," he said.
Hjemdahl speculates that some historical ignorance may also be
explained by the fact that Sweden accepted Stalin's takeover of
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
"Sweden expressed its de jure recognition of the Soviet Union's World
War II annexation of the Baltic States. Nazi Germany and Franco's
Spain were the other countries to grant such strong recognition," he
said.
The organization has provoked a strong reaction in the few short hours
it published its findings in Dagens Nyheter.
"We have had lots of responses over the course of the morning. Some
aggressive communists have called us to voice their opinions.
"But we also had two victims of communism crying on the phone,
explaining that they had waited fifty years for this," said Hjemdahl.
He also added that the organization has plans to make its effort
international and is currently working on translating its material
into English.
Honorary members and contributors to UOK include former Estonian Prime
Minister Mart Laar, Latvia's EU Commissioner Sandra Kalniete and
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.
Paul O'Mahony
It's that way in much of western Europe.
When the victorous Allied Forces conquered the german reich, they
specifically chose socialists or communist to conduct
institutionalized 're-education' within their areas of authority.
They did this to stamp out hitlerian philosophy.
The trouble is that by doing so, they also established the pre-
eminence of an alien-socialist zeit-geist in the resultant post-war
Europe.
(An additonal problem was that the soviet union imposed its own form
of socialism - communism - on the rest of Europe. Thus it is not
overly surprising to me that Europe is today, a very screwed up
place.)
The result of all of that inculcated socialism is that today's
european kids are only educated about Socialist concerns. The enemy of
Socialism was nazism, and it is the victims of nazism that are
continually resurrected as exemplars of the evil of nazism.
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
How many people died because of socialism?
There as much relation between socialism and what was called communism
in USSR and China as between national-socialism and the current
political situation in the USA.
Eugene Holman
2007-05-10 08:37:05 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
***@cs.com wrote:

<deletions>
Post by l***@cs.com
It's that way in much of western Europe.
When the victorous Allied Forces conquered the german reich, they
specifically chose socialists or communist to conduct
institutionalized 're-education' within their areas of authority.
They did this to stamp out hitlerian philosophy.
In your dreams, nejêga.
Post by l***@cs.com
The trouble is that by doing so, they also established the pre-
eminence of an alien-socialist zeit-geist in the resultant post-war
Europe.
In post-war Europe social-democracy was regarded as providing a more
humane model for organizing society than cut-throat, individualistic,
"me-first" capitalism.
Post by l***@cs.com
(An additional problem was that the soviet union imposed its own form
of socialism - communism - on the rest of Europe.
From an economic point of view, the Soviet Union used a closed form of
state-monopoly, self-sufficiency-based capitalism. The state owned and
operated the means of production, decided how resources should be
allocated, and isolated the marketplace and the money supply so that only
the goods and services that it provided were available. It's just a larger
version of the system still in use in some countries where all or part of
the wages in certain sectors are paid in scrip that can only be spent at
the company store.
Post by l***@cs.com
Thus it is not
overly surprising to me that Europe is today, a very screwed up
place.)
Oh, are we now? No country in EU Europe has anything close to the 17%
child poverty rate that you have in the US
[http://www.nccp.org/pub_cpt05b.html]. No country anywhere in Europe has
children lacking access to basic health snd dental care as you do in the
United States [http://www.childrenshealthcampaign.org/]. No country in
Europe, not even Albania or Moldava, is so screwed up that it would regard
the high rates of child poverty and lacking or inadequate access to
health care services as somehow normal or acceptable.
Post by l***@cs.com
The result of all of that inculcated socialism is that today's
european kids are only educated about Socialist concerns. The enemy of
Socialism was nazism, and it is the victims of nazism that are
continually resurrected as exemplars of the evil of nazism.
Today's European kids, far better than you, know the difference between
social democracy and more liberal (in the European sense) forms of
societal management. We have political parties that offer a greater
difference than the Coca-Cola or Pepsi-Cola that the two main American
parties offer, and, as recently shown by the outcome of the Finnish and
French elections, the voters understand the differences and their
consequences. Both social-democratic and liberal parties, though,
understand that prosperous, successful societies are characterized by a
high degree of social responsibility, and that the best way to avoid
sociopathologies of the type so common in the United States is to invest
in children.
Post by l***@cs.com
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
You owe me a new keyboard for the one I just destroyed when I blew lunch
after reading the above sentence. How can anybody claim anything so
stupid? Sweden become one of the most successful societies on earth as a
consequence of the implementation and tweaking of a social-democratic
societal model. As is the case with everything new, the model eventually
became somewhat unwieldly, and the social-democrats were voted into the
opposition last year. Swedish, Scandinavian, social-democracy, is not
"institutionalized Socialism", but rather a societal model that assigns to
the state the tasks that it can do best, such as providing adequate and
inexpensive health care and affordable, quality public transportation for
the entire population, and allows private industry to provide the goods
and services that it does best.

The recent Swedish elections that resulted in the Social-democrats going
into the opposition, did not mean a rejection of the model of society that
has made Sweden such a successful country for the past half century, but
rather provided an interval for the model to be updated so that it could
better confront the challenges of today, including globalization,
transboundary environmental hazards, and an aging population. Your
claptrap about "victims of Socialism itself" is a consequence of your
Tarzan way of thinking that anybody who bandies the label "socialist"
around *is* a socialist. For you, evidently, all the people killed by the
regime established by the National Socialist Workers Party, also known as
the Nazis, as well as by the authorities of the Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics, were "victims of socialism".
Post by l***@cs.com
The fact that a small percentage of Swedish kids
know about it at all is probably only due to advanced studies - or
more likely - to the transmittal of family knowledge of Socialist mass
murders.
How many American kids know about the Indian Removal Act, the Dred Scott
decision, the Butler Act, or McCarthyism? How many know why May Day is
celebrated in most of the world, but interestingly not in the United
States, as an international holiday of solidarity honoring people who work
for a living?

\EH
Eugene Holman
2007-05-10 09:08:38 UTC
Permalink
For a good read on the importance of an interaction between socialism and
liberalism (in the European sense), try the following article.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/09/opinion/edgiddens.php

<quote>

Right on economics, wrong on social justice
By Anthony Giddens
Tribune Media Services
Wednesday, May 9, 2007

LONDON:
It would be impossible to deny that the problems facing France are grave,
and that they are structural - small-scale tinkering won't begin to deal
with them.
France's unemployment rate is nudging 10 percent, and this figure excludes
the large numbers of people who have retired and who have to be paid for
by the younger generation. Public debt has built up from 20 percent of
gross domestic product in 1980 to 66 percent today. About a quarter of
people aged under 30 in France have never held a full-time job.

No wonder the media is full of stories about young people fleeing to work
abroad. There are 400,000 French expatriates living in London alone - the
equivalent of one of France's large cities. Following the no vote in the
EU constitutional referendum, French influence in the European Union has
dipped sharply.

Nicolas Sarkozy is well aware of these issues. The problem is that his
program offers only half of what France needs. He says that France is too
resistant to change and concentrates too much upon protecting existing
perks and privileges. Pointing to the fact that France is falling behind
other nations, he argues that the country has done too little to encourage
initiative and entrepreneurial activity.

He distinguishes three main ways in which, on an economic level, the
country must break with its past policies and programs. First, it must be
recognized that wealth has to be created before it can be distributed. The
rigid labor laws in France discourage business start-ups and the
flexibility needed to adjust to rapid technological change. The so-called
taxe Delande, for example, imposes a levy upon any firm that makes anyone
over 45 redundant.

Second, overspending by the state must be brought down and public finances
put in order.

Third, the free market should be regarded as a friend rather than an enemy
whose influence is to be limited at all costs. What's wrong with these
remedies? Nothing: they are exactly what France needs.

It is the other half of Sarkozy's program that is wholly inadequate. He
has little interest in social justice or the limiting of inequality.
Social protection will take second place.

France has massive ethnic inequalities. What was Sarkozy's response to the
riots in the minority neighborhoods? He dismissed the rioters as "scum."
His mixture of free markets and hard-line law-and-order policies add up to
a brittle combination indeed.

As he forms his government, Sarkozy might well take some pages from his
electoral opponent, Ségolène Royal, whose proposals focused on social
protection, such as increasing the minimum wage, providing interest-free
loans to young people and increasing benefits for the disabled.

A good sign of Sarkozy's possible open-mindedness is his idea of "positive
discrimination" for minorities, akin to affirmative action in the United
States. Still, the prospects for France look worrying. Economic growth and
job creation are vital. Let's hope that Sarkozy sees that these are not
inconsistent with social justice, but on the contrary are the condition of
pursuing it.

A final note. One result of the French election is that the German, French
and British leadership - by which I mean Gordon Brown - should be able to
work well together on many things, and that could lead to a resurgence of
Europe.

The German government is a coalition in which the social democrats still
play some part. So it isn't simply "on the right." Brown is likely to give
more attention than Sarkozy to continuing to beef up public services and
reduce inequalities, as a good social democrat should.

But there are certainly many issues today that don't break down easily
into a left/right division - climate change, energy security, coping with
crime - on which Europe can now find common ground.

Anthony Giddens, former head of the London School of Economics, is an
adviser to Prime Minister Tony Blair and author of the "third way"
approach that guided Blair's policies. This Global Viewpoint article was
distributed by Tribune Media Services.

</quote>
Maris
2007-05-10 10:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Holman
For a good read on the importance of an interaction between socialism and
liberalism (in the European sense), try the following article.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/09/opinion/edgiddens.php
<quote>
Right on economics, wrong on social justice
By Anthony Giddens
Tribune Media Services
Wednesday, May 9, 2007
snip snip>
Post by Eugene Holman
No wonder the media is full of stories about young people fleeing to work
abroad. There are 400,000 French expatriates living in London alone - the
equivalent of one of France's large cities. Following the no vote in the
EU constitutional referendum, French influence in the European Union has
dipped sharply.
I find that hard to believe. There are supposed to be 600,000 Poles in
the UK (I personally believe there are over 1m) and you hear Polish
everywhere and see Polish registered cars all the time . Not so with
French. Rarely heard and little evidence of French registered cars.

Maris
l***@cs.com
2007-05-10 10:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
It's that way in much of western Europe.
When the victorous Allied Forces conquered the german reich, they
specifically chose socialists or communist to conduct
institutionalized 're-education' within their areas of authority.
They did this to stamp out hitlerian philosophy.
In your dreams, nejêga.
That's it, holeman?
Tell us, then, what contrarian tripe they taught you at Moskow U.
No socialist educational commisars?
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
The trouble is that by doing so, they also established the pre-
eminence of an alien-socialist zeit-geist in the resultant post-war
Europe.
In post-war Europe social-democracy was regarded as providing a more
humane model for organizing society than cut-throat, individualistic,
"me-first" capitalism.
So then, you actually *do* accept that socialist ideology was
forceably impressed upon young europeans - to 'sociali-democritze'
them..
Why were you disagreeing, then? Innate stupidity?
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
(An additional problem was that the soviet union imposed its own form
of socialism - communism - on the rest of Europe.
From an economic point of view, the Soviet Union used a closed form of
state-monopoly, self-sufficiency-based capitalism.
They might have taught you that at Moskow U - but unfortunately - the
rest of the world called it socialism or communism.
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
Thus it is not
overly surprising to me that Europe is today, a very screwed up
place.)
Oh, are we now? No country in EU Europe has anything close to the 17%
child poverty rate that you have in the US
There's plenty of poverty in the EU as well.
In fact there is more poverty in the EU than there is in the US.
Comrade.

But we really weren't talking about bountiful baguettes.. but rather
socialist produced bodies being crudely covered over by socialist
educational throw-rugs. Pay attention.
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
The result of all of that inculcated socialism is that today's
european kids are only educated about Socialist concerns. The enemy of
Socialism was nazism, and it is the victims of nazism that are
continually resurrected as exemplars of the evil of nazism.
Today's European kids, far better than you, know the difference between
social democracy and more liberal (in the European sense) forms of
societal management.
Wait up, comrade buckwheat.. We weren't talking about that neither..
We were talking about the rather gaping educational lacunae regarding
socialist directed mass murders in today's socialist educational
systems. Socialist education has produced dullards that are unaware of
over 100 MILLION victims of socialist criminals.
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
It is not in the interest of institutionalized Socialism (as exists in
Sweden and elsewhere) to publicize the many many millions more victims
of Socialism itself.
You owe me a new keyboard for the one I just destroyed when I blew lunch
after reading the above sentence. How can anybody claim anything so
stupid?
I wouildn't have a clue..
Perhaps it was your stint at Moskow U.
Post by Eugene Holman
Sweden become one of the most successful societies on earth as a
consequence of the implementation and tweaking of a social-democratic
societal model.
Successful societies do not produce ignorant dullards who do not even
know the realities that afflicted everyone else around them. Unless,
of course, this was the intended goal of socialist educational
ideology.
Post by Eugene Holman
The recent Swedish elections that resulted in the Social-democrats going
into the opposition, did not mean a rejection of the model of society that
has made Sweden such a successful country for the past half century, but
rather provided an interval for the model to be updated so that it could
better confront the challenges of today, including globalization,
transboundary environmental hazards, and an aging population.
Yes yes.. bla bla bla... have a cracker.
But it has nothing to do with Swedish iinstitutional inculcated
ignorance - other than the fact that socialist ideological goals have
been retained.
Post by Eugene Holman
Your
claptrap about "victims of Socialism itself" is a consequence of your
Tarzan way of thinking that anybody who bandies the label "socialist"
around *is* a socialist.
Well then.. you tell me why the russian murderers Lenin and Stalin
called themselves 'socialists' - and why you don't think they really
were.
Post by Eugene Holman
For you, evidently, all the people killed by the
regime established by the National Socialist Workers Party, also known as
the Nazis, as well as by the authorities of the Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics, were "victims of socialism".
Yep.. I was playing with that notion also... and hold it in reserve..
not that I need it.
My most salient effort, though, concerns itself with socialist
educational indoctrination...
As evident in stupified Swedish victim students.
Post by Eugene Holman
Post by l***@cs.com
The fact that a small percentage of Swedish kids
know about it at all is probably only due to advanced studies - or
more likely - to the transmittal of family knowledge of Socialist mass
murders.
How many American kids know about the Indian Removal Act
In general 'all'.
Post by Eugene Holman
the Dred Scott decision
Any student that takes a high school history course.
Post by Eugene Holman
the Butler Act
Butler Act? Now you are getting miniscule. Self-serving, even.
Post by Eugene Holman
or McCarthyism?
Most everyone.
Post by Eugene Holman
How many know why May Day is
celebrated in most of the world, but interestingly not in the United
States, as an international holiday of solidarity honoring people who work
for a living?
Besides proving my point regarding european socialist
indoctrination... and socialist 'may days'..
We don't do commie crap over here - like they do in screwed up
euroland.
The illegal mexicans do - but that's it. Their country is mucho
screwed up too.
Sorry.

PS: Did you wear your red-neckerchief in the parade? Your red army
medals?
Parsifal
2007-05-10 05:37:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
How many young Americans have heard of the napalm thrown on Vietnamese
civilians by the US army? How many young Americans have heard have
heard of the TWO atomic bomb thrown on civilians by the US army?
How many Americans have heard that Saddam Hussein was put in place and
supported by the USA, like several other dictatorships?
l***@cs.com
2007-05-10 07:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Parsifal
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
How many young Americans have heard of the napalm thrown on Vietnamese
civilians by the US army?
A lot. And by 'all' of their parents.
Post by Parsifal
How many young Americans have heard have
heard of the TWO atomic bomb thrown on civilians by the US army?
Most.
(Not exclusively 'civilian', btw)
Post by Parsifal
How many Americans have heard that Saddam Hussein was put in place and
supported by the USA, like several other dictatorships?
Many... even though intervening decades necessarily changed that
initial relationship to its final (and most relevant) form; Bush vs
Saddam. You are being too nuanced.
Brixton Mortar
2007-05-11 00:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
You are being too nuanced.
I take it that you mean you have encountered somebody who doesn't see the
world in entirely black and white terms, as if it were a B Movie or a
history book for five year olds, and you can't understand all the grown up
ideas.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Henry Alminas
2007-05-10 11:26:45 UTC
Permalink
"Sound of Trumpet" <***@emailaccount.com> wrote in message news:***@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism

www.thelocal.se ^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony


Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture


Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.

A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag.

***************

This is news?
I recall the old Balt-L forum.
There was a Swede posting there.

He sounded just like Holman.

Best - - Henry
Eugene Holman
2007-05-10 11:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se ^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag.
***************
This is news?
I recall the old Balt-L forum.
There was a Swede posting there.
He sounded just like Holman.
Are you insinuating that I have never heard of the Gulag and am in the
dark about the fate of the countries bordering on the Baltic Sea that had
the misfortune to be stuck behind the Iron Curtain?

Best,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
2007-05-10 11:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Young Swedes lack knowledge about communism
www.thelocal.se ^ | 05/09/2007 | Paul O'Mahony
Posted on 05/09/2007 1:25:37 PM PDT by WesternCulture
Less than fifteen years after the last Soviet troops pulled out of the
Baltic States, a new survey has shown that young Swedes are still in
the dark about the fate of its neighbours behind the Iron Curtain.
A poll carried out by Demoskop on behalf of the Organization for
Information on Communism (Föreningen för upplysning om kommunismen -
UOK) found that 90 percent of Swedes between the ages of 15 and 20 had
never heard of the Gulag.
***************
This is news?
I recall the old Balt-L forum.
There was a Swede posting there.
He sounded just like Holman.
Are you insinuating that I have never heard of the Gulag and am in the
dark about the fate of the countries bordering on the Baltic Sea that had
the misfortune to be stuck behind the Iron Curtain?

The Swede you are thinking of was almost certainly Erland Sommarskog. He
and I shared the view that the best guarantee for the security and
prosperity of the three Baltic countries is a democratic and prosperous
Russia firmly enmeshed in international structures.

Best,
Eugene Holman
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