Discussion:
Lime tree and Swedes living like Indians.
(too old to reply)
l***@cs.com
2005-02-06 08:32:31 UTC
Permalink
meddelandet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
Why do you think these aren't native trees?
You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's
for
sure.
Isn't she wonderful? Only Inger could come up with something
meaningless
like this.
Renia
Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.

I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.

There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..

Secondary:
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.

Uno Hu
I.E_Johansson
2005-02-06 08:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
meddelandet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
Why do you think these aren't native trees?
You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's
for
sure.
Isn't she wonderful? Only Inger could come up with something
meaningless
like this.
Renia
Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.
I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.
Well little do we know of each others culture no matter that the Baltic area
and Sweden have long traditions of close contact of different kinds going
back to the far distant Pre-Historic Era.
I didn't know that you in the Baltic countries had this tradition as well.
My note about the Pre-Historic Era is due to the fact that at least some of
the flint found in Östergötland origin from the Baltic side of the Sea
probably because it was easier travelling on water than in deep wooden areas
and over hills down to Skåne where the other flint-area close to
Östergötland is.
This part I have up in my C-essay/thesis Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre
tider, History Dept, Linköping's university 1993.
Post by l***@cs.com
There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..
second that.
Post by l***@cs.com
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.
No knowledge or experience in that area at all. Sounds interesting.

Inger E
Post by l***@cs.com
Uno Hu
treasure
2005-02-08 19:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by l***@cs.com
meddelandet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
Why do you think these aren't native trees?
SNIP
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by l***@cs.com
Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.
I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.
Well little do we know of each others culture no matter that the Baltic area
and Sweden have long traditions of close contact of different kinds going
back to the far distant Pre-Historic Era.
I didn't know that you in the Baltic countries had this tradition as well.
SNIP
This part I have up in my C-essay/thesis Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre
tider, History Dept, Linköping's university 1993.
Post by l***@cs.com
There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..
second that.
Post by l***@cs.com
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.
No knowledge or experience in that area at all. Sounds interesting.
Inger E
Post by l***@cs.com
Uno Hu
From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger leaves,
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the flower)
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger. Definitely
different varieties.

In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white, excellent for
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for use
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the flower
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral, Windsor
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In Sweden, the
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has been
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were fishermen
this might be your explanation right there.

As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or limeblossom
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in bloom. The
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal properties.
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that they
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the name
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.

By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose. The
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and flowers
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility. Mixed
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the wood.

Laima palaimink,

-Kovas
l***@cs.com
2005-02-08 20:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by treasure
From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger leaves,
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the flower)
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger. Definitely
different varieties.
In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white,
excellent for
Post by treasure
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for use
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the flower
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral, Windsor
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In Sweden, the
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has been
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were fishermen
this might be your explanation right there.
As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or
limeblossom
Post by treasure
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in bloom. The
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal
properties.
Post by treasure
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that they
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the name
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.
By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.
The
Post by treasure
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and flowers
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility.
Mixed
Post by treasure
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the wood.
Laima palaimink,
-Kovas
Nice addendum, Kovac.
I have yet another economic item that slipped my mind previously
regarding the Linden/Bassword previously; coppicing.

The tree has a trait of sending up many strong, straight, yet pliable
shoots around the base of the trunk. These were used by pioneers to
form the frames for basketry, fishing wiers, and other handy items.
Cutting them down only results in their replacement in 2-3 years; a
useful tree.

Uno Hu
I.E_Johansson
2005-02-08 21:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by treasure
Post by treasure
From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger
leaves,
Post by treasure
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the
flower)
Post by treasure
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger.
Definitely
Post by treasure
different varieties.
In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white,
excellent for
Post by treasure
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for
use
Post by treasure
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the
flower
Post by treasure
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral,
Windsor
Post by treasure
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the
Post by treasure
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has
been
Post by treasure
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were
fishermen
Post by treasure
this might be your explanation right there.
As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or
limeblossom
Post by treasure
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in
bloom. The
Post by treasure
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal
properties.
Post by treasure
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that
they
Post by treasure
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the
name
Post by treasure
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on
them, as
Post by treasure
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.
By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is
considered a
Post by treasure
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.
The
Post by treasure
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and
flowers
Post by treasure
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility.
Mixed
Post by treasure
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the
wood.
Post by treasure
Laima palaimink,
-Kovas
Nice addendum, Kovac.
I have yet another economic item that slipped my mind previously
regarding the Linden/Bassword previously; coppicing.
The tree has a trait of sending up many strong, straight, yet pliable
shoots around the base of the trunk. These were used by pioneers to
form the frames for basketry, fishing wiers, and other handy items.
Cutting them down only results in their replacement in 2-3 years; a
useful tree.
First Kalm spoke of the tree we call Lind growing in avenues in the middle
of forrests/woods. Avenues means that they grow in at least two lines
heading up to a houseground or something like that. Secondly you are right
regarding the basket production and such. Problem here is that not all of
Sweden had, contrary to your Baltic country that tradition. Don't even know
if it's ever been established how long ago people here in Scandinavia began
using the shoots that way. Do you know?

Inger E
Post by treasure
Uno Hu
l***@cs.com
2005-02-09 23:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
First Kalm spoke of the tree we call Lind growing in avenues in the middle
of forrests/woods. Avenues means that they grow in at least two lines
heading up to a houseground or something like that. Secondly you are right
regarding the basket production and such. Problem here is that not all of
Sweden had, contrary to your Baltic country that tradition. Don't even know
if it's ever been established how long ago people here in Scandinavia began
using the shoots that way. Do you know?
Inger E
That, I don't know. But I will take a look and inform you if I find
anything interesting.
I.E_Johansson
2005-02-10 07:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by I.E_Johansson
First Kalm spoke of the tree we call Lind growing in avenues in the
middle
Post by I.E_Johansson
of forrests/woods. Avenues means that they grow in at least two lines
heading up to a houseground or something like that. Secondly you are
right
Post by I.E_Johansson
regarding the basket production and such. Problem here is that not
all of
Post by I.E_Johansson
Sweden had, contrary to your Baltic country that tradition. Don't
even know
Post by I.E_Johansson
if it's ever been established how long ago people here in Scandinavia
began
Post by I.E_Johansson
using the shoots that way. Do you know?
Inger E
That, I don't know. But I will take a look and inform you if I find
anything interesting.
Thanks.
Btw have you access to the Latvian Chronicle as well as the old Annal? (I am
not talking of the now popular epos.) Please read the parts up to 1100's and
compare them with the Ipaty Annals,
then compare the information from both regarding 890-943 with information in
the Khazar papers.....
very interesting and informative. Might point directly to a Tartar
connection by some Swedish Vikings. More contact to the Khazars by others.

Inger E
l***@cs.com
2005-02-10 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
Btw have you access to the Latvian Chronicle as well as the old Annal? (I am
not talking of the now popular epos.) Please read the parts up to 1100's and
compare them with the Ipaty Annals,
then compare the information from both regarding 890-943 with
information in
Post by I.E_Johansson
the Khazar papers.....
very interesting and informative. Might point directly to a Tartar
connection by some Swedish Vikings. More contact to the Khazars by others.
Inger E
Are you referring to the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle(s)?
If so, yes, I have read many segments of that (translated from old
German to Latvian). Unfortunately they do not correspond well with the
russian chronicles - which are russo-centric.

Only in relation to warfare between the German Baltic knights and
russians do they relate - but then only cursorily. There is also a
mis-match in the focus of dates; the German colonizers only begin their
accounts ca 1250.
..

As far as the 'Ipaty Annals' are concerned..
Is this the same as the 1400's Hypatian redaction?:

"Hypatian Chronicle. Compendium of three chronicles: Nestor the
Chronicler 'Povist' vremennykh lit' (Tale of Bygone Years, ca 1110)
with some alterations, particularly at the end of the text, the Kyiv
Chronicle of the 12th century, and the Galician-Volhynian Chronicle.
The oldest redaction of the compendium, dating back to the early 15th
century, was discovered by Nikolai Karamzin at the Hypatian Monastery
in Kostroma, Russia."

If so, I have read a translation of Nestor's 'Povist Vremennykh Let'
(Also known as the 'Primary Chronicle'); or 1/3 of of the entire
Hypatian 1400's redaction.

I would greatly love to read any of the manuscripts in their original
OCS form, and if anyone can point to online images of the text (or the
other two), I would greatly appreciate it.

There is something else to consider when reading; the fact that Nestor
was writing his chronicle as a hagiography.
Nestor's primary purpose was to serve his church's political goals.
Additionally, his work had to be approved by the reigning russian
monarch or knaz (his work had to be 'politically correct'). The oldest
Nestorian tracts exhibit numerous erasures and modifications.
..

What Khazar papers are you referring to?

Uno Hu

PS: I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work; 'The Thirteenth Tribe The
Khazar Empire and its Heritage' as a very nice *overview* of the
subject.

I am rarely impressed by individuals, but was much impressed by
Koestler's wonderfully insightful mind.

"Mr. Koestler was an Ashkenazi Jew and took pride in his Khazar
ancestry. He was also a very talented and successful writer who
published over 25 novels and essays."

"As expected, The Thirteenth Tribe caused a stir when published in
1976, since it demolishes ancient racial and ethnic dogmas...At the
height of the controversy in 1983, the lifeless bodies of Arthur
Koestler and his wife were found in their London home. Despite
significant inconsistencies, the police ruled their death a suicide..."

Loading Image...
I.E_Johansson
2005-02-10 19:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by I.E_Johansson
Btw have you access to the Latvian Chronicle as well as the old
Annal? (I am
Post by I.E_Johansson
not talking of the now popular epos.) Please read the parts up to
1100's and
Post by I.E_Johansson
compare them with the Ipaty Annals,
then compare the information from both regarding 890-943 with
information in
Post by I.E_Johansson
the Khazar papers.....
very interesting and informative. Might point directly to a Tartar
connection by some Swedish Vikings. More contact to the Khazars by
others.
Post by I.E_Johansson
Inger E
Are you referring to the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle(s)?
If so, yes, I have read many segments of that (translated from old
German to Latvian). Unfortunately they do not correspond well with the
russian chronicles - which are russo-centric.
Yes if they are, but if you look at story period 880 to 950 and then to
1080 - 1240 in them some very interesting information turns up.
Post by I.E_Johansson
Only in relation to warfare between the German Baltic knights and
russians do they relate - but then only cursorily. There is also a
mis-match in the focus of dates; the German colonizers only begin their
accounts ca 1250.
..
When a Med.Dr. married to a friend of mine worked in Latvia for a while he
had with him one Chronicle/Annal which went back to 8th century. Any idea
what he got?
Post by I.E_Johansson
As far as the 'Ipaty Annals' are concerned..
Not exactly if my Russian scholar friends have got it correct. The later
they told me was based on the former but also included parts which can be
found in the Novgorod Chronicle. It's long ago since I worked with those
sources.
Post by I.E_Johansson
"Hypatian Chronicle. Compendium of three chronicles: Nestor the
Chronicler 'Povist' vremennykh lit' (Tale of Bygone Years, ca 1110)
with some alterations, particularly at the end of the text, the Kyiv
Chronicle of the 12th century, and the Galician-Volhynian Chronicle.
The oldest redaction of the compendium, dating back to the early 15th
century, was discovered by Nikolai Karamzin at the Hypatian Monastery
in Kostroma, Russia."
If so, I have read a translation of Nestor's 'Povist Vremennykh Let'
(Also known as the 'Primary Chronicle'); or 1/3 of of the entire
Hypatian 1400's redaction.
I would greatly love to read any of the manuscripts in their original
OCS form, and if anyone can point to online images of the text (or the
other two), I would greatly appreciate it.
Who wouldn't. I had some 'pages' MSS sent in photo-form to me. It was due to
me spending time with a dictionary going thru an excavation report from
Novgorod edited in Russian language..... I had said that I never would spend
so much time trying to understand any Russian text again..... Can't say that
I would figure out enough words to make it worth while looking at the
photos..... but it was fun anyway.
Post by I.E_Johansson
There is something else to consider when reading; the fact that Nestor
was writing his chronicle as a hagiography.
Would you please explain what the word hagiography means to you. For me it
means being written in order to be a bibliography over Saints. As such I
can't see the Nestor's Chronicle when reading the full text. I guess you
might have an other understanding of the word or that you might refer to
Nestor's reason for writing the Chronicle?
Post by I.E_Johansson
Nestor's primary purpose was to serve his church's political goals.
Additionally, his work had to be approved by the reigning russian
monarch or knaz (his work had to be 'politically correct'). The oldest
Nestorian tracts exhibit numerous erasures and modifications.
..
It does.
Post by I.E_Johansson
What Khazar papers are you referring to?
When I started working with the Khazar related questions I started from:
Khazarian Hebrew Documents of the tenth Century, edit Golb Norman and
Pritsak Omeljan, London 1982
now a days Kevin who is responsible for the Khazar studies being presented
sends us who are interested information about many other now and then.
But lets start with the one above.

Inger E
Post by I.E_Johansson
PS: I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work; 'The Thirteenth Tribe The
Khazar Empire and its Heritage' as a very nice *overview* of the
subject.
Yes it's good, isn't it? Unfortunatly I haven't seen any reviews or
advertisment for it here in Sweden. I must have missed it. Can't be that the
journals have missed it. Can they?
IEJ
Post by I.E_Johansson
I am rarely impressed by individuals, but was much impressed by
Koestler's wonderfully insightful mind.
"Mr. Koestler was an Ashkenazi Jew and took pride in his Khazar
ancestry. He was also a very talented and successful writer who
published over 25 novels and essays."
"As expected, The Thirteenth Tribe caused a stir when published in
1976, since it demolishes ancient racial and ethnic dogmas...At the
height of the controversy in 1983, the lifeless bodies of Arthur
Koestler and his wife were found in their London home. Despite
significant inconsistencies, the police ruled their death a suicide..."
http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/k179.jpg
Alan Crozier
2005-02-10 20:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by l***@cs.com
PS: I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work; 'The Thirteenth Tribe The
Khazar Empire and its Heritage' as a very nice *overview* of the
subject.
Yes it's good, isn't it? Unfortunatly I haven't seen any reviews or
advertisment for it here in Sweden. I must have missed it. Can't be that the
journals have missed it. Can they?
The book appeared in 1976, so you'll have to go back a bit to find reviews.

Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
I.E_Johansson
2005-02-08 21:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by treasure
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by l***@cs.com
meddelandet
On 4 Feb 2005 18:58:14 -0800, in sci.archaeology,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
Why do you think these aren't native trees?
SNIP
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by l***@cs.com
Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.
I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.
Well little do we know of each others culture no matter that the Baltic
area
Post by I.E_Johansson
and Sweden have long traditions of close contact of different kinds going
back to the far distant Pre-Historic Era.
I didn't know that you in the Baltic countries had this tradition as well.
SNIP
This part I have up in my C-essay/thesis Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i
äldre
Post by I.E_Johansson
tider, History Dept, Linköping's university 1993.
Post by l***@cs.com
There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..
second that.
Post by l***@cs.com
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.
No knowledge or experience in that area at all. Sounds interesting.
Inger E
Post by l***@cs.com
Uno Hu
From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger leaves,
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the flower)
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger. Definitely
different varieties.
In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white, excellent for
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for use
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the flower
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral, Windsor
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In Sweden, the
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has been
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were fishermen
this might be your explanation right there.
As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or limeblossom
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in bloom.
The
Post by treasure
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal properties.
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that they
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the name
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.
By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose. The
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and flowers
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility.
Mixed
Post by treasure
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the wood.
Laima palaimink,
-Kovas
You haven't read Kalm. Please do so before you make up your mind.
Unfortunatly there are hugh misinterpretations and thus wrongly translated
words in the English versions of Kalm. If you can you better try to get hold
of the excellent French edition of Kalm's voyage to Canada, or you might try
the German editions. Your assumptions aren't correct but seems to be reached
from the English editions.

Inger E
l***@cs.com
2005-02-10 17:37:40 UTC
Permalink
treasure wrote:
" The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of
flax, has been employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede
immigrants were fishermen this might be your explanation right there."

"Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized. By the way in modern
American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.
Laima palaimink, Kovas"

Two small things I've found to add:

1)Basketry was (in some cases) used to make bee hives in proximity to
Linden trees.
2) The *Bass*wood terminology comes from the the old English term for
the US version of Lindens; *Bast*-wood':

"Centuries ago, the fibrous bark from lime was used for the "bass" or
"bast" in rope making.
"An old name for lime was "linden".

Small-leaved lime was probably far more common here in prehistoric
times. Selective felling by man caused its decline. It has always been
used for forestry, principally for coppicing as it produces long,
straight poles"

http://www.rfs.org.uk/thirdlevel.asp?

3) "A permanent system of forest cultivation called
coppice-with-standards evolved in the British Isles over the past
thousand years, which provided a large range of products-from
construction timber to fencing and furniture parts to fruits, nuts,
honey, and wild game-while maintaining continuous forest cover.
"Coppice" is the practice of cutting trees to the ground purposely to
stimulate resprouting. The word also refers to the regrowth itself.
"Standards" are the trees selected (often planted) to grow into large
timber.

The continuous cutting of small blocks of coppice creates a mosaic of
environments that offers much more diverse habitat for game animals and
birds than the native forest itself. These "fells," or management
blocks-usually no more than an acre in size- also provide patches
of higher light intensity within the forest, which in turn stimulate a
tremendous profusion of flowering and fruiting shrubs and wildflowers.

Pollarding is similar to coppicing in that the trees are regularly cut
back in order to rejuvenate the tops so that small diameter fuelwood
can be harvested. However, pollarded trees are cut not at the ground,
but about 2m (6 feet) above the ground. This practice preserved the
basic tree form and also prevented animals from browsing the tender new
sprouts.

Unlike most coniferous trees, many deciduous hardwoods will resprout
vigorously from the stump when cut. Although some of the roots die back
when the top is cut, much of the original root mass of the tree
survives. From reserves of energy in the roots, the tree regrows very
rapidly, often sprouting 10-30 new stems, which can grow 1-5 meters
(4-15 feet) in a single season. Traditionally, most woodcutting was
done during the autumn and winter, after the agricultural harvest, when
attention could be put on less critical chores. Besides helping to
balance the annual cycle of domestic labor, this practice had many
other advantages. Wood harvested while the trees are dormant is lower
in moisture and makes both longer-lasting timber and better fuel.
Winter cutting also conserved the tree's energy by matching the natural
cycle of vegetative regeneration. Temperate zone root energy reserves
are highest in the dark months of the year as the trees adapt to cold
weather by shedding their leaves and preparing for new growth in
spring.

The repeated cutting had an additional benefit that is not immediately
obvious: it prolonged the life of the trees, often two, three, or four,
times their "natural" span. There are ash "stools" (the stumps from
which regrowth occurs) in England over a thousand years old still
growing coppice.

[!!! Kalm's trees could possibly have been older than thought]

The primary design of coppice-with-standards, however, is to support
the yield of many forest products from a small area.

As each fell of mature woodland was harvested, the regrowth would be
graded by the woodsmen. Superior stems would be selected as "tellers,"
the young precursors to "standards." In addition to tellers there were
two classes of standards. Older yet were the "veterans," and in the
French system, the "oldbark" were yet more venerable. Inferior trees,
whether slower growing, prone to disease, or misshapen, would be
coppiced for poles, wattle (smaller pieces for weaving into a kind of
movable fencing for livestock), and fuelwood. The tops and branches
were sometimes fed to cattle as fodder. In modern management of
coppice-with-standards, young tellers are often planted from selected
stock after the harvest of mature overwood.

Fells were harvested about every six to seven years, the irregularity
permitting adaptation to a variable climate: a cold summer or a dry
year with poor growth could be accommodated in the system. The thinning
of the tellers and of the subsequent classes of standards was done with
a mind to maintaining an open canopy where about half the light came
directly from the sun and the other half indirectly from the sky. The
overstory was thinned to maintain optimal growth conditions both for
the remaining trees and for the underwood. The regular harvest of young
trees and of coppice kept timber and wood processing labor to a
minimum, a factor of critical importance to a society lacking power
tools or fossil fuels. Timbers were shaped with adze and froe, by hand.
Firewood and poles were cut with an axe.

The splitting of large logs, whether for firewood or fencing, was a
custom adopted by Americans in response to the conditions of their
forests: vast numbers of huge trees covered the continent when the
first settlers moved westward. In preindustrial Europe, the notion of
growing a tree to a great size, only to chop it into small pieces, was
seen as wasteful of human energy. Poles and timbers were grown to the
size needed, and no more, while fire-wood was cut at just the dimension
required for stoves and fireplaces.

Overstory and underwood were usually of different species. This made
the woodland ecologically resilient, as canopy and ground cover
exploited not only different soil layers and nutrients, but grew at
different seasons. The coppice and groundcovers did about two-thirds of
their photosynthesis for the year before the overstory came into leaf.

Oak, ash, beech, and elm were commonly the standards, while hazel,
alder, lime (linden, Tilia cordata), willow, and hornbeam were often
grown in the understory. Hazel yielded not only edible nuts, but fodder
from the young shoots, and like willow, made excellent basketry, while
lime leaves were eaten and the trees usually allowed to flower before
harvesting, to provide a flavored honey crop. Lime was also made into
greenwood furniture, while hornbeam went for fuel, and alder (a
nitrogen-fixer) bolstered soil fertility. Many of these same species
have additional medicinal or craft use, providing dyes, seeds, and
flowers of value.

The understory was made more complex by the retention or cultivation of
many fruiting shrubs such as crab apple, rowan, service tree, wild
cherry, and roses. Wide pathways through the woods made access to the
forest easier, and gave a place for much of the woodcraft to take
place.

['avenues'?]

They also introduced more edge that increased the available light and
enhanced the productivity of the woodland. After each felling there
would be an explosion of wildflowers the following spring, while
greenwood growth increased the forage for wild game, an important meat
source.

Coppice-with-standards, and strict laws requiring the retention of at
least 8-20 large trees per acre, ensured the presence of all age
classes of major timber trees in a small area, while enormously
increasing the diversity and productivity of the forest.

This article by guest author Peter Bane was originally published in The
Permaculture Activist"

<<http://www.permacultureactivist.net/>>
I.E_Johansson
2005-02-10 17:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@cs.com
" The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of
flax, has been employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede
immigrants were fishermen this might be your explanation right there."
"Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids.
on that as well as something we call 'svartrot' my father told me they used
for candy.

viper's grass my dictionary translate it with, but that doesn't look like
any 'svartrot' I ever seen neither in nature nor in shops....
Post by l***@cs.com
And lime-blossom honey is quite prized. By the way in modern
American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.
Laima palaimink, Kovas"
1)Basketry was (in some cases) used to make bee hives in proximity to
Linden trees.
2) The *Bass*wood terminology comes from the the old English term for
"Centuries ago, the fibrous bark from lime was used for the "bass" or
"bast" in rope making.
"An old name for lime was "linden".
Small-leaved lime was probably far more common here in prehistoric
times. Selective felling by man caused its decline. It has always been
used for forestry, principally for coppicing as it produces long,
straight poles"
http://www.rfs.org.uk/thirdlevel.asp?
3) "A permanent system of forest cultivation called
coppice-with-standards evolved in the British Isles over the past
thousand years, which provided a large range of products-from
construction timber to fencing and furniture parts to fruits, nuts,
honey, and wild game-while maintaining continuous forest cover.
"Coppice" is the practice of cutting trees to the ground purposely to
stimulate resprouting. The word also refers to the regrowth itself.
"Standards" are the trees selected (often planted) to grow into large
timber.
The continuous cutting of small blocks of coppice creates a mosaic of
environments that offers much more diverse habitat for game animals and
birds than the native forest itself. These "fells," or management
blocks-usually no more than an acre in size- also provide patches
of higher light intensity within the forest, which in turn stimulate a
tremendous profusion of flowering and fruiting shrubs and wildflowers.
Pollarding is similar to coppicing in that the trees are regularly cut
back in order to rejuvenate the tops so that small diameter fuelwood
can be harvested. However, pollarded trees are cut not at the ground,
but about 2m (6 feet) above the ground. This practice preserved the
basic tree form and also prevented animals from browsing the tender new
sprouts.
Unlike most coniferous trees, many deciduous hardwoods will resprout
vigorously from the stump when cut. Although some of the roots die back
when the top is cut, much of the original root mass of the tree
survives. From reserves of energy in the roots, the tree regrows very
rapidly, often sprouting 10-30 new stems, which can grow 1-5 meters
(4-15 feet) in a single season. Traditionally, most woodcutting was
done during the autumn and winter, after the agricultural harvest, when
attention could be put on less critical chores. Besides helping to
balance the annual cycle of domestic labor, this practice had many
other advantages. Wood harvested while the trees are dormant is lower
in moisture and makes both longer-lasting timber and better fuel.
Winter cutting also conserved the tree's energy by matching the natural
cycle of vegetative regeneration. Temperate zone root energy reserves
are highest in the dark months of the year as the trees adapt to cold
weather by shedding their leaves and preparing for new growth in
spring.
The repeated cutting had an additional benefit that is not immediately
obvious: it prolonged the life of the trees, often two, three, or four,
times their "natural" span. There are ash "stools" (the stumps from
which regrowth occurs) in England over a thousand years old still
growing coppice.
[!!! Kalm's trees could possibly have been older than thought]
The primary design of coppice-with-standards, however, is to support
the yield of many forest products from a small area.
As each fell of mature woodland was harvested, the regrowth would be
graded by the woodsmen. Superior stems would be selected as "tellers,"
the young precursors to "standards." In addition to tellers there were
two classes of standards. Older yet were the "veterans," and in the
French system, the "oldbark" were yet more venerable. Inferior trees,
whether slower growing, prone to disease, or misshapen, would be
coppiced for poles, wattle (smaller pieces for weaving into a kind of
movable fencing for livestock), and fuelwood. The tops and branches
were sometimes fed to cattle as fodder. In modern management of
coppice-with-standards, young tellers are often planted from selected
stock after the harvest of mature overwood.
Fells were harvested about every six to seven years, the irregularity
permitting adaptation to a variable climate: a cold summer or a dry
year with poor growth could be accommodated in the system. The thinning
of the tellers and of the subsequent classes of standards was done with
a mind to maintaining an open canopy where about half the light came
directly from the sun and the other half indirectly from the sky. The
overstory was thinned to maintain optimal growth conditions both for
the remaining trees and for the underwood. The regular harvest of young
trees and of coppice kept timber and wood processing labor to a
minimum, a factor of critical importance to a society lacking power
tools or fossil fuels. Timbers were shaped with adze and froe, by hand.
Firewood and poles were cut with an axe.
The splitting of large logs, whether for firewood or fencing, was a
custom adopted by Americans in response to the conditions of their
forests: vast numbers of huge trees covered the continent when the
first settlers moved westward. In preindustrial Europe, the notion of
growing a tree to a great size, only to chop it into small pieces, was
seen as wasteful of human energy. Poles and timbers were grown to the
size needed, and no more, while fire-wood was cut at just the dimension
required for stoves and fireplaces.
Overstory and underwood were usually of different species. This made
the woodland ecologically resilient, as canopy and ground cover
exploited not only different soil layers and nutrients, but grew at
different seasons. The coppice and groundcovers did about two-thirds of
their photosynthesis for the year before the overstory came into leaf.
Oak, ash, beech, and elm were commonly the standards, while hazel,
alder, lime (linden, Tilia cordata), willow, and hornbeam were often
grown in the understory. Hazel yielded not only edible nuts, but fodder
from the young shoots, and like willow, made excellent basketry, while
lime leaves were eaten and the trees usually allowed to flower before
harvesting, to provide a flavored honey crop. Lime was also made into
greenwood furniture, while hornbeam went for fuel, and alder (a
nitrogen-fixer) bolstered soil fertility. Many of these same species
have additional medicinal or craft use, providing dyes, seeds, and
flowers of value.
The understory was made more complex by the retention or cultivation of
many fruiting shrubs such as crab apple, rowan, service tree, wild
cherry, and roses. Wide pathways through the woods made access to the
forest easier, and gave a place for much of the woodcraft to take
place.
['avenues'?]
They also introduced more edge that increased the available light and
enhanced the productivity of the woodland. After each felling there
would be an explosion of wildflowers the following spring, while
greenwood growth increased the forage for wild game, an important meat
source.
Coppice-with-standards, and strict laws requiring the retention of at
least 8-20 large trees per acre, ensured the presence of all age
classes of major timber trees in a small area, while enormously
increasing the diversity and productivity of the forest.
This article by guest author Peter Bane was originally published in The
Permaculture Activist"
<<http://www.permacultureactivist.net/>>
Thanks.
Very informative.
Inger E
Alan Crozier
2005-02-10 20:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by I.E_Johansson
Post by l***@cs.com
" The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of
flax, has been employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede
immigrants were fishermen this might be your explanation right there."
"Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids.
on that as well as something we call 'svartrot' my father told me they used
for candy.
viper's grass my dictionary translate it with, but that doesn't look like
any 'svartrot' I ever seen neither in nature nor in shops....
It's called black salsify

Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
Alaca
2005-02-10 18:33:36 UTC
Permalink
***@cs.com wrote in:
***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com,

about coppice

1. As far as I know Kalm did not mention coppiced trees or wood.
2. The real age of coppice is almost impossible to establish.
--
- Peter Alaca -
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